It’s time to roll our sleeves up and get down and dirty with the challenges that trading can present. I welcome back long time member and friend, Ben (for those of you in the community, alias “close2pga”) to get an update on his journey. Ben has been struggling and not seeing the results he’d like, so this turns into more of deep dive into his psyche and trying to pinpoint what the problem is, but more important, what the solution is. If you are brand new to trading and have never put real money into the market, this discussion may be a bit over your head; however, if you are someone who has put their hard earned money into the market, then I’m confident you’ll be able to relate in more ways than one to Ben and his challenges. Who knows, maybe “the thing” that has been causing Ben his issues is the one correction you can also make within your trading to turn your results around? This was an awesome discussion and I’m excited to bring it to you! Let’s go!
Clay: This is The Stock Trading Reality podcast, episode 242
Announcer: This is The Stock Trading Reality podcast where you get to see the realistic side of a trader’s journey, get inspired and stay motivated by every day normal people who are currently on their journey to trading success. And this is your host, he has become an expert at locating scoops. ClayTrader.
Clay: Scoop, scoop, scoop, scoop. Yes, that I am like a sniper. Now a scoop is what my son, Tripp calls backhoes and I guess he knows what a bulldozer is. It used to be just any piece of construction equipment, but definitely the backhoes with the big scoops on them. That’s what he loves them, he’s all about them. He has books and toys, but so whenever we see one, first thing I say is, “Now Tripp, you see that cat on the end of it. That means caterpillar made that scoop and you would want to invest in the caterpillar stock because stocks appreciate over time Tripp, and then you also get dividends Tripp.” So, that’s how … I’m kidding. I don’t quite go down that rabbit.
Clay: When he gets older though, you better believe that I’ll be using scoops as an investment lesson and I will teach him well who’s on that scoop does it say Deere? Because that would be good because they have a stock. John Deere doesn’t say cat, that would be good. They have caterpillar and so there’s definitely some future financial lessons in a scoop. But for now, yes I have a very, very good eye and I have become an expert at locating scoops, especially knowing you’re driving on the road and that’s like the one benefit now where you know everything comes down to one lane and things slow down because they’re doing some sort of road work. You usually have a good opportunity as seeing some scoops in those situations. But, yeah.
Clay: So, I’ll hold back on the financial lessons for now, but oh Tripp someday you’re going to hear all about that scoops have some good financial lessons buried within them. As for today’s episode, just finished up with it and we are getting into the nitty gritty details of trading psychology, of just figuring things out, talking out loud. And I guess in some sense … I don’t want to say this was live coaching because I feel like I wasn’t really coaching. I just, we’re two traders that can relate and just talking through things, and trying to figure out, do some reverse engineering, me throwing some of my experience in there and just really talking nitty gritty details of trading psychology and what it’s like to be a trader. What things people struggle with, how can you identify those struggles, what are some solutions to fix those struggles?
Clay: We talk about all that sort of stuff. So just a warning upfront, we’re getting our hands dirty here from a trading perspective. If you’ve never ever traded before or this is your first ever podcast on trading, I would highly recommend, I mean, I guess you can listen to it, but just realize that this is really more detailed. We have a lot of other episodes where you could probably be able to relate more, but if you are somebody that has ever had real money on the line, and you’ve met the emotions, and the voices that show up, I have a sneaky suspicion that there’s going to be some things in here that you can probably relate to.
Clay: So we bring back Ben, and Ben is a great guy. I’ve met him before in person, and we talk about that a little bit at the beginning, but he was on, I don’t remember what episode, but it’s been over a year since he was on, and he’s been ongoing. He’s been a member of the community. He has been trading, he has been working on things as we’re about to discover. So, I’ll just leave it at that, and let’s get dirty with the nitty gritty details with Ben. Ben, welcome to the show.
Ben: Thank you. Glad to be here.
Clay: I got to be honest, I’m a little shocked you came back after that spanking I delivered to you in Denver at Topgolf. Do you remember that Ben or is that just a memory you are trying to suppress?
Ben: I’m sorry, that must be somebody else. I can’t possibly imagine that that happened.
Clay: I can’t either honestly. For our listeners context, we do meet ups around the country and we did one in Denver, and Ben was in Denver and then Remy who’s been on the show several times and in fact he’s going to be on here in a couple of weeks too for another welcome back. But anyways, Remy and Ben were there and I mean they’re competitive guys. I’m a competitive guy. They talk trash, I like to talk trash, all in good fun of course. So it’s not like these meetups are just anything cut throat and we were at Topgolf and I don’t know …
Clay: Well I know what happened. Robin, shout out to Robin gave me some lessons and all of a sudden I was just, I don’t know where … Well, like I said, I know where it came from, it came from Robin, but I was just shocked to see the straightness of these drives. And I ultimately just, I beat both Remy and Ben and Ben’s got a beautiful looking swing. So, I mean do you have any explanation for it other than just straight up … I mean it was Robin, right?
Ben: Well or either that or a blind squirrel finds an acorn every now and again.
Clay: I think it was a combination. If we can meet in the middle, I’m pretty sure that’s pretty much-
Ben: You did well. You did well and I gave it my best effort but you still took me down, so more props to you, it was good. You made some great improvements and well done. I’ll get you next time though.
Clay: I like that. And that’s why I like Ben. In fact my wife was in Denver too and she said, “That Ben guy, he is such a gentleman.” So you know what, keep up being a gentleman too. You are a big hit amongst I think everybody out there. So, I appreciated you because my wife’s always a little nervous coming to these things. I mean, let’s be honest, there are a bunch of people that I met in an internet chat room, so I totally understand why she could be a little leery, but you gave a good impression of the type of people that could be in an internet chat room Ben. So again, well done.
Ben: Well, the only thing is, is that we haven’t had one since, so I don’t know if I’m the cause of that or you wanted to retire a winner or what? But, you know.
Clay: Actually, I may have to respond to that. I just wanted to go out on top. But you are totally justified to call me out for that and we do have to get that ball rolling again. It’s just, well we were going to, but then IT Nate’s wife who’s the producer of the show, she was going to help us plan, but then nature happened. She got pregnant and then they’re trying to get a house done and things just … I mean I realize this is just me listing off one excuse after the other, but it is what it is, anyways.
Ben: It is what it is. We’ll get it done eventually.
Clay: Exactly. That’s the attitude to definitely have. Now, first off, thank you very much for being here because when I asked you in the chat room, you were like, hey, I feel like nothing really new has happened since the last time I was on, which was over a year ago. But, then you sent me an email and said, but if you need somebody, I’m willing to do it. So, I really do appreciate that kind of team attitude that I don’t know what you’d want to call. Just a good attitude, I appreciate you coming on here even though you don’t think that anything has happened.
Clay: So, I’m a little nervous because I’m hoping I can pull out something, but I guess the one big difference I know that has changed is you were in Seattle the last time you were on the show and you owned a sports … How would you call it? I mean it had like the-
Ben: I would call it like a little family fun center. It was a driving range, batting cages and miniature golf set up. And what happened is I actually sold that and moved to Phoenix. So as far as life goes, life is fantastic. I’m loving life so that’s great. I couldn’t be happier as far as that goes.
Clay: Uh-oh, which means there is something else that goes that maybe you’re not as happy with.
Ben: Well, the trading is not to the level that I’d like it to be, which is to say, I’m not successful at it at all.
Clay: Okay. So lets, before we pick up with where you’re currently at right now, where did you, to your best of your ability, because like I said, I realized this was literally over a year ago since we spoke, but where did we last leave off or where do you remember in a broad sense, leaving off? I guess maybe the best way to put it is while you were still in Seattle, where was your trading journey at that point in time?
Ben: My trading journey had, it started about a year before that I was taking courses from other gurus or whatever you want to call them. And then I purchased the CTU. And at the time, I think when we first talked I had just purchased CTU, I was getting into studying and going over the courses and learning what you had to offer. And that’s basically where I was at. I was right at the beginning of my CTU start out.
Clay: Okay. That does ring a bell, because I remember we won’t throw any names out there, but you had some experiences with people and then you arrived full circle in your kind of just beginning. So do you remember what you were focusing on? Were you looking to trade stocks? Were you’re looking to trade options? I guess pick up from that point. So, you had just gotten CTU and we’ll just do a continuation a couple years later. So, let’s fill in that gap. So pick it up from that point.
Ben: I basically just like to trade stocks. I have an account, a Lightspeed account so that I can fully trade with leverage and I do like to trade stocks. I haven’t gotten into the options or any of the other things or Forex or any of those things. I focus mainly on stocks. I like to be in and out in a day. I don’t like to hold overnight, especially if I’m doing day trading. Then I think when you start to hold overnight, then you’re getting into other aspects. If I were getting into swing trading, that’s fine, but I don’t do that. I like to be in and done by the end of the day no matter what happens.
Clay: I have a question, real quick, did you know that way back when you just started CTU or is that something you’ve discovered over the way? But did you always know you wanted to do day trading?
Ben: Yes, I think that as far as when I got into it, I never went, oh, let me try options or let me try Forex. No, I wanted to be in and out. I liked the idea and the concept of being in and out in the day so that there’s nothing hanging over my head. I didn’t like that idea of having something hanging over your head or is it going to work out. Now, that’s different with investment. I certainly have investment things, but that’s a whole another ball of wax and you just have investment and let that go. But as far as trying to buy a stock, let it go up and sell it for a profit, I wanted to be in and out during the day.
Clay: Have you ever held something overnight?
Clay: Okay. So, right now we’re talking in theory that you don’t think you would like that?
Ben: No. Certainly-
Clay: You know. You know that you wouldn’t like to do that?
Ben: Well, I’ve thought about it. I look at your weekly, the Power Scan and I do think about, hey, maybe I should delve into a little bit of a swing trading with that. But, I have not done it though. I’ve looked at it, maybe done a little bit of practicing papering it, but I have not gotten serious about it and made an attempt at that. So, that might be a scenario that I should look further into.
Clay: I’m not saying one way or the other. I just want to make sure that I’m understanding the context here.
Clay: But you just … And, I totally get it, the whole, I have the mindset I want to be in and out within the same day, heck even be done within a couple hours. So, I totally understand that, and I wouldn’t say that that’s like illogical or anything like that. So, you went in with that mentality and I mean, did you go through the courses one by one and paper trade or did you … I guess walk us through the educational aspect. How did you approach ClayTrader University? Because like you said, when we last left off, you had just made the investment into the program. So walk us through how you approached the classes and all that’s offered through it.
Ben: Sure. Well, I started out with robotic trading obviously. I think I went through that even maybe a couple times. I think I went through it once, did the … What is the next one? No, it’s on resistance.
Clay: Skill sharpening.
Ben: Skill sharpening, thank you. Went through skill sharpening and then said, I think I’m going to do robotic trading. Again, it may not have been right after each other. And, I did that and then started to do the RVR. But in the meantime, I was paper trading. I was trying to find a formula, something that would work for me. And so, I wanted to focus on simple stuff and I tried to focus on maybe bear flags and bull flags and just try to trade those types of things.
Ben: I papered for, I’d say for quite some time. I would say six or eight months until I felt like I was having some success paper trading. And then that’s when I decided to fund a full trading account and start doing that. And I think that was around the beginning of 2019 that I started trading with real money. And it’s-
Clay: Let me ask you this real quick. You said you felt like you were having success or you felt like you’re in a good spot with your paper trading. So what was going on with your paper trading that gave you the impression that, hey, I’m feeling good. Things were going well? How were you, I guess, quantifying or defining feeling good and having good results?
Ben: Well, I felt like I was taking it serious. So, whenever I would make a trade, I would write down the trade that I was taking because I still had … What did I have? I had a platform that was available to me, I think. So I was getting realtime numbers. I think I was still paying for a different platform that gave me level two that gave me all the numbers so I could bring up a trading platform. It just wasn’t funded, but I could play around with it, if you will. So I would say, okay, here’s a stock that I’m looking at. Here’s going to be my entry point. And I would write that down, and when I would check the bid and the ask and if it hit that number, I would say, okay, now I’m in.
Ben: And then I would set my target or set my stop and I would keep track of those numbers specifically. So I would watch it and if it went down to hit my stop, I would stop out, write down, okay that lost $30 plus $2 for commission or whatever. So, I really felt like I was keeping a very accurate and detailed log of what I was doing and I would just do this day after day and I wanted to make it real also. So, my idea was to trade with a maximum of a hundred shares. That was all going to be my maximum to start with. So I wasn’t doing any of these trading with a thousand shares. I tried to keep it as real as possible and I made money. Not a lot, but I grew my account.
Ben: Again, I started at where I thought I would have a trading account with $25,000 and I grew it to $30,000, and so I’m thinking, okay this is good. I think that I’m ready to go. And like we’ve all run across when it comes to actual real money, it’s like it seems like everything goes out the window. Now, I’ve never destroyed my account. It certainly had some losses and I have lost money over this year, but there’s been no, I’ve not lost $10,000 or anything of that nature. But I can’t duplicate the success that I had paper trading.
Clay: Did you take losses while you were paper trading?
Ben: Oh yes.
Clay: Okay. So it’s not like you’re being … Because as of right now, I confirm everything that you say, the way you went about it. It’s not like there is a red flag of, yeah. So, I had this account that was a $3 million account and I was out there buying 10,000 shares of Tesla. So nothing crazy like that. And you were also taking losses. So, well I guess going live, what was the problem? You were just getting stopped out a whole lot more, or you just were flat out wrong, or you were breaking rules I guess. What do you think was occurring after your transition from going … Because, I said I’m a little …
Clay: I was hoping actually you had given me a red flag because you’d make this a whole lot easier from like, oh well that was probably what was going on. But right now everything sounds like you’re going about it, why? So, I mean, what do you … And I realize maybe you might not have the answer, but what would you attribute the losses to?
Ben: Unfortunately, I have to say all of the above. I mean let’s cut to the chase here. I’m confronting a little bit that I may not be able to handle this, and I think it’s the mental aspect of it. I continually do the wrong things. How many times have I sat there in a webinar and don’t chase or no chasing, but yeah I catch myself doing it all the time and it is very frustrating. And the more frustrating thing is that I’m telling myself that I’m doing it yet I find it difficult to actually stop.
Ben: So I mean, that’s why I say I’m confronting the idea or confronting the reality that I may not just have the mental fortitude to do it, which is disappointing to me because I feel like I’m a strong guy. Maybe not the most mental giant in the world, but I feel like I have the ability to control my ability to do something like that. I’m not a gambler. I mean, I like to play cards or something, but I’m not like one of these big gambler guys that just likes to sit here and yeah, I’m going to gamble back and forth. That is not me at all. But yet when I start trading, I don’t gamble. But yet I think I hurry up, I’ll get into a position too quickly or then I’ll get out too quickly or I don’t wait. It’s like I do all the things you’re not supposed to do.
Ben: I mean, I wish I could boil it down to one thing, but it’s like I do all the things that I’m not supposed to do. I do them.
Clay: Let me-
Ben: Go ahead.
Clay: Let me ask this. Is this trading paying your bills, are you depending on this account to somehow pay your mortgage or pay your gas bill or whatever?
Ben: No. I want it to get to that level, but I don’t depend on it, no. I don’t have to depend on it. I want it to get to that level because I like to get to a position where it paid the bills, but I don’t have to depend on it, no.
Clay: Okay. So it’s not like that … Because I could see chasing coming, stemming from, oh I got to make money because I got to pay a bill, so I got to make a trade. So, I’m just getting in right now even though it’s not really the entry point. All right. So, we’ve eliminated that. So, let’s say when you are wrong, does that ruin your day?
Ben: It has a tendency, it doesn’t ruin my day, but yes, I do think about it and it weighs on my mind during the day. I got to where I almost don’t even like to trade on Fridays with the risk of having a red day on Friday, because now I got to stew about it the entire weekend. With that, I came across your little talk about trading outside your parameter or what is the … What’s, the word I’m looking for? Your comfort level.
Clay: Okay. Yup.
Ben: Right. And so, I listened to that and I went, wow. Yeah. Okay. That is, I am actually trading a little outside of my comfort level. It’s not so much that it bothers me, it’s just that I couldn’t sit there and trade a hundred shares and have it go 40 cents against me. And I go like, not that I’m worried about the $40, but I just didn’t like to see that $40 loss. So, I’ve really cut back. So, now I’m down to 50 and even 25 share size.
Clay: Wait, let me … Not to cut you off, so you don’t like the $40 loss, why? Because it’s not a $40 loss in the sense of, oh crap, $40, I’m going to get foreclosed on by the bank. It’s not in that sense, right?
Clay: You don’t like the $40 loss because why? Because it implies that you were wrong?
Ben: Correct. And not ego wise. It’s not an ego issue. It’s that I’m unsuccessful, that tells me I’m unsuccessful. And again, it’s not an ego issue like, oh, I must be successful because I’m some kind of somebody. It’s just that when I do something, I like to do it properly and I want to be successful at it whether it’s even just $20 a day or $2,000 a day, I’d like to be successful at it. When I continually have losses, yes, there is a money aspect to it. No one likes to lose money, but it’s not the amount of money, it’s just the fact that I am losing money and I can’t get any sustained success at it. So, I don’t know if that answers the question that you’re asking.
Clay: Yes. I’m trying to peel back the layers here and trying to determine-
Ben: And I also thought that, I was getting stopped out. Again, I’m not perfect about maybe doing an exact RVR trade, but I always take into account proper levels, whether if I’m putting in before and after whole numbers. I try to make logical stop losses. I’ll tell you that I don’t exactly go on an RVR scenario, but whenever I do stop losses or targets, I don’t do them randomly. I try to do them because I’ve listened to enough webinars to go about that.
Ben: But, I also noticed that it’s getting back to the share size. I was noticing that I was getting stopped out. So I said, okay, if I need to have a bigger stop loss, I can’t do it with a hundred shares, but maybe if I reduce it to 25 shares, then I can allow myself a bigger stop loss in order to give it a chance to work in my favor. You know what I mean?
Ben: So that’s one of the reasons I reduced my share size is that … So instead of having to make a 30 or a 40 cent stop loss, maybe I can now make a 75 cent or even a $1 stop loss that’ll allow me to give it a little more room to move before I get stopped out. I don’t know maybe that’s a-
Clay: Okay, I need a little point of clarification. Saying you’re doing … It’s like a form of RVR. I’m not quite sure the exact words you used, but your … Do you know what I’m referring to when you said you’re … I get it that your points are logical in terms of stop losses, but you made the comment, it’s like RVR that I’m doing or not quite the … The RVR is not quite … Do you know what I’m talking about?
Ben: Yeah. Yeah.
Clay: I mean, do you remember that comment you made?
Ben: Yes. Yes.
Clay: Okay. So can you expand upon what do you exactly do you mean that it’s not quite RVR?
Ben: Well, I probably don’t always get three to one.
Clay: Okay. Just so in that sense.
Ben: So, when I get into a trade, I don’t necessarily put the numbers in and say, okay, I’m going to buy at $10 my stop loss is at nine.
Clay: Is it safe to say you’re doing the eyeball test?
Ben: Eyeball test, yes.
Clay: Okay. So, all right. I just want to make sure that you weren’t just out in no man’s land doing some random strategy that it’s kind of RVR, but it’s not RVR because you’re not quite following the rules, but you just meant it in terms of if you’re just, you’re not typing in numbers to the spreadsheet, you’re just using the eyeball test for things. Is that a clear understanding?
Ben: That would be a better understanding of it, yes.
Clay: Okay. All right. So it’s not like you’re out there just shooting from the hip and making it up as you go. Well, I guess to go back to where you were, you reduced position size so that you could give wider stop losses. So did that help out at all or are you still getting stopped out?
Ben: I don’t get stopped out as much, but yet I’m still not able to really make good I think … Now, I’m not saying that just because I have a small share size that now that all of a sudden changes everything. On top of having an uncomfortable level of shares. I’m still not making great decisions on my entry. I think I get too excited or I get into a position too soon or things of that nature. So, there’s compounding problems. I mean I’m willing to say, and I hate to say it, but I think there’s compounding problems because not only do I … So, I’ll get into position too soon. I’ll say, I’m going to go …
Clay: Well yeah, I think you’re … I don’t think, I know you’re hitting the nail on the head because if it was a stop loss problem, then you making it wider stops would have taken care of the problem. So, you nailed it when you said it’s not necessarily a stop loss problem. It sounds like your entry points, you’re putting yourself behind the eight ball before you really ever get anything underway. It’s like real estate, the saying, you don’t make money in real estate when you sell, you make money when you buy. Because if you don’t get the right entry point in real estate, it’s going to be an uphill battle from that point forward. And based on what you’re saying, like I said, I just confirm I think you’ve hit the nail on the head that it’s an entry point issue here. If you’re still getting stopped out, even when you gave yourselves or gave yourself a wider stop loss.
Ben: Correct. And, I do think that is part of the case. Because I can tell that when I do a better job of getting into a stock, whether it’s long or short, I do seem to have better success, but then I go back to, I keep going back to maybe I just can’t handle it mentally because again I know this, but yet every morning when I sit down to the computer and 6:30, the market opens, I get excited and I see something happening and I go, okay, I think I want to get into this stock. And I do it anyway. I mean, what is going on with that? I mean, I’m just asking that rhetorically, but I am frustrated with myself because I can’t seem to get a handle on it. I mean, that’s when I get frustrated is, I can’t seem to get a handle on controlling when I get into a stock and I’ve got figure out.
Clay: So, you’re overtrading? That’s the bottom line.
Ben: Oh yeah. Definitely that too.
Clay: Okay. Why do you want to be in a stock so bad? Because you’re bored or because you think that I need to be in this stock because that’s the only way I’m going to make money, I mean?
Ben: There’s certainly some of that. It’s if I don’t trade, then I’m not going to have any winner and that’s [crosstalk 00:27:48].
Clay: And I can’t be a successful trader unless I have winning trades. So therefore I need to be in trades to have wins so that I can be a successful trader. Does the logic pretty much go something like that?
Clay: Okay. So really it’s just a matter of we got to look at the downside here is let’s say that you don’t make any trades for the day. So, you have a zero. What is the downside to that for you? I mean, from a very financial perspective, does that affect you at all?
Ben: No, a zero day is fine.
Clay: Okay. So, maybe even write that down on a sticky, a zero day is fine from a financial perspective. So, we’ve got to get that box checked off that literally financially speaking, if it’s a $0 day, then nothing in your life changes at all. It’s whatever.
Ben: Wrote it down already.
Clay: But now we’ve got to address … Good, now we’ve got to address the competitive voice because that’s what’s really doing this is, I want to be in a … If I’m not in a trade, that means I can’t be successful because, well, I’m not going to have any winning trades and I want you to be trading because I am a trader, so I got to get in a… I mean and I know you know this, but I guess you just have to really believe it is that you do realize that sometimes sitting on your hands is the successful thing to do, right?
Clay: And I know you know that, but I think that’s the barrier here is that’s what somehow we got to get you to really actually believe that, because I know you know it in theory, but you have to … I don’t know. And you’re a golfer. I mean is there an analogy in golfer? I don’t know. Let’s say, and this could be way out so don’t make fun of me, but I get it if you go into the trees. Maybe sometimes you got to hit the ball backwards to get back onto the green as much as it would be like no I want to just hit the ball forward because well that’s where the holes at.
Clay: But forward as a good golfer like you are, you probably recognize but you know what, going forward right now is actually not the right thing to do because that is going to make my life a whole lot difficult. It would be easier if I just actually went backwards a little bit to get back on the green and then set myself up for a much better shot. Would that ever happen in golf?
Ben: Well, first off-
Clay: Do you at least see where I’m trying to go with all this?
Ben: Well first off, I swear you are a closet golfer because you do come up with some pretty good golf analogies that for somebody that says they never golf, you do seem to have a grasp, a good understanding of it. But yes, that is a good analogy and I see that and I can relate to that certainly on the golf course.
Clay: But you would do that on the golf course, right? Because you have … And I mean this in all seriousness, you have a great looking swing. And for me, before I swing, oh man, there are so many voices in my head. Do this, do that. Remember to do this. Oh, but don’t do that. I mean a golf swing is like the most mechanical … that and swinging a bat, it’s crazy how much things actually go into having a good swing. So, I mean, you clearly have that mental game down in golf to be able to just do what you got to do and just … And a beautiful swing every time. I mean, we got to bring that mental fortitude you have from golf into trading because I mean, that’s …
Clay: You know what I mean?
Ben: Agreed. I mean, I struggle with that and I was thinking about it since we talked about wanting to do another podcast. I was trying to take a real inventory of what it is and I know it. I feel like it’s a mental thing. And whenever I talk to other people about it, buddies, and you know how talking to traders or talking to buddies about trading, they don’t get it. But yet I always say, I see the setups. I, a lot of times see the setup, I don’t take the trade and it works out perfectly. So, I mean, I know that I can see these things and I can identify the patterns, but yet I still have a difficult time getting into. And to me that is all mental. Maybe not all mental but 90%-
Clay: Okay. Why do you have a difficult time getting into it? Because you’re scared you’re going to be wrong?
Ben: There’s a little bit of that. Just recently, I think I took a trade on a stock and it went against me, so I stopped out. Again, it wasn’t much, I think it was, I lost $9, big deal. But then, that same stock made the same setup, and I said, “Boy, that really looks right. That looks like that should be an entry point right there with …” But I sat there and watched it and didn’t take the stock and it reacted exactly as …
Ben: Which we’ve all been there I realized that, but I was scared. I had already been burned by the stock one time. So, I then I get gun shy on it. So.
Clay: Okay, so what do you do on golf? If you have a bad swing, how do you recalibrate for the next swing? As a golfer what do you do? What do you tell yourself?
Ben: Well, you got to try to let it go and forget it. So that is, you’ve got to let the past be the past. So, certainly with golf you’ve got to do that. But that’s the best case scenario, it can’t always be done, but try to let it go. And yeah, you’re talking like this like I’m that great of a golfer, I’m not that great of a golfer, but those are the things you’re supposed to do. So, I guess …
Clay: But you can relate to what I’m getting at because you see what I-
Ben: I can relate.
Clay: You see what I’m trying to do, I’m trying to draw parallels here because golf is very mental and trade is very mental and we’ve already determined none of these mental voices are coming. None of these struggles are coming from a financial aspect because everything would be fine. Like you said, it’s a $9 loss and yes, money doesn’t grow on trees. So I don’t want to come across like, oh we were just … $9 let’s just light on fire. That’s not what I’m trying …
Ben: No, no.
Clay: I’m just trying to say is nothing is … From a financial. So it’s more of just at the core you’re a competitive guy and you want to have success. So to me it sounds like, because I struggle with this too every now and then it’s like you see a setup, you’re getting, oh shoot it didn’t work out. All right, whatever. Losing. And then you see the exact same setup and you’re like, well crap, if I take that, I mean it was just wrong. And if I take it again and I’m wrong again, man, that’s going to mean that I’m wrong twice in the same day. Dang! That would suck. I don’t want to be wrong twice in a single day.
Clay: So then you hesitate and then all of a sudden, oh, I would’ve been right. And then because I would have been right, my loss would have been wiped well away and I would have been well in the green. I mean it sounds like that’s where you’re at right now is you don’t want to …
Ben: That’s exactly. Exactly.
Clay: The risk you’re not as scared of is not the monetary risks, the risk you’re scared of is being pissed off because you’re a competitive guy and you want to have success. But if you’re wrong again, well now you’re going to be like, well, geez, I was wrong twice.
Ben: Yes, exactly.
Clay: So, that’s the hurdle. And again, I know you know this, it’s just how do we get you to believe it? I know you know that you could theoretically be wrong five times in a row, but if everything was logical and it just simply didn’t work out, well, then that’s okay. That’s actually successful trading, which is the big conundrum here because, well, no, successful trading would be making money. Well, no, the successful trading is managing that risk and making sure that you’re keeping everything logical.
Clay: But, I can also see where you … Well, I don’t know, this is what has me confused because now we’re talking about you hesitating to get into a trade, but other times it sounds like you’re just throwing yourself in a trade. So, I mean.
Ben: I’m all over the board. I admit it. I’m all over the board. You’re right. I will do some of each. I’ll see something and I’m going like, well that just looks good, let’s go. And then other times I will sit there and study and look at it and yeah, it literally is crazy to me because I can’t seem to … I almost can’t seem to control it one way or the other. I would say if one side of me was just, I was always just going in on a whim, and buy this, no matter what, let’s just buy it because it looks good. Okay. And then that was always my mistake. Great, let’s focus on that.
Ben: But then there’s other times where I’ll do that, but then there’s other times where I’ll look at it and really think about it and say, okay, that’s a great point of entry. It’s right above whatever, some support, but I don’t take the trade and it works. And then I’m frustrated because I didn’t take the trade when I saw the trade right there in front of me.
Clay: So then that’s probably when you start to force trades too.
Ben: And I do all of that also. I mean I really-
Clay: Well, that makes sense. And when you miss out on a trade because for whatever reason and you’re like, “Oh well that would have worked out, so I’m going to do it again.” But I mean it’s a different psychology, if you take a trade and then you get stopped out and then all of a sudden the same exact set up happens and then you don’t take it at that point. Well that’s just because you’re scared of potentially having to be wrong again. Whereas the other ones, you’re just irritated because you didn’t take it the first time. So now you’re just going to hop in, even if it’s not quite there, but you’re not going to make the same mistake again by not getting in.
Clay: So, really it’s just a matter of … Like I said, I know you know everything, it’s we got to just get you to believe that there is no … Well, first off there’s literally no need for you to get into a trade. So I mean that’s really the main thing to focus on right now is that make sure that you don’t overtrade and I get … Do you ever hesitate right at the get go or is the get go, you’re pretty much always hopping into trades? Right at that opening bell, that is.
Ben: I used to, now I have, thankfully I guess maybe that’s one level that I’ve achieved some success. I don’t do it anymore, I will let things shake out for two or three minutes and see what happens. But yes, there was a great urge to jump in the second the market opens and I realized now that was just flat out gambling. Now maybe, yes, if a stock is gapping up, you’re thinking maybe the odds are a little in your favor that it’s going to continue to go up. But that’s still in my mind, you’re just making a guess. You’re just making a 50, 50 guess. I mean, I’m just guessing it’s going to go up, so let’s go long or I’m guessing it’s going to drop, so let’s go short.
Ben: So, at least I did. And I’m not saying I did that hundreds of times, but I did catch myself saying, this is pure gambling. You need to stop this. So, I have stopped that. So I like to let things shake out, not for 10 minutes or 15 minutes, but at least a couple of minutes because I mean, we all have seen the second the market opens, things go nutty there for a couple of minutes. And so I do try to hold for a second and let things shake out a little bit and see if I can find something that I like. So, I don’t wait 10, 15 minutes, but I don’t do it the second the market opens either.
Clay: All right, well that’s something you can definitely build on.
Ben: Yeah, okay.
Clay: So, you let the market go by and that gives charts time to settle down. So I mean, at that window of time, do you still hesitate or are you pretty good at just getting in when you see something?
Ben: No, I’m pretty good at getting in and I guess, yeah, usually the first trade that I make, I’m usually pretty just, hey, no problem. Let’s get in. It’s a fresh day. I haven’t lost any money, so I’m ready to go.
Clay: Exactly, and you want to be trading.
Ben: I want to be trading and so I’ll do it now. That can set the tone too if I get a winner right at the gate, then, okay, I can calm down and relax. You get a loser right out of the gate, now you’re going on behind the eight ball now. And then I think that leads to some overtrading.
Clay: Behind the eight ball in what sense though?
Ben: I lost money, I’m negative, whether it’s negative $5 or negative $50 I’m negative and I don’t like to be negative. I mean, because when it all boils down to it, we are trying to be positive and that’s the only judgment. At least in my opinion, if I’m continually losing money, that is not a successful trader.
Clay: No, I fully agree. But there’s also, what you need to realize is if you do have a losing trade or losing trades or losing trades or a losing day, that’s okay too. It’s okay to have a couple of losing trades and a couple losing days. I mean, yes, when all the dust is settled, your wins need to be bigger than your losses, but at the same time it sounds like a single loss for you, throws you way out of whack way too quick. Where one loss, and correct me if I’m wrong, but the way I’m thinking is one loss, crap I’m behind the eight ball, and this is bad. So, now I need to be that much more careful. So now you’re hesitating to make trades or else you’re thinking, well crap I’m behind the eight ball. That looks good enough, and if I make this trade, it’ll put me ahead of the eight ball. Now you’re forcing trades, and you’re getting those bad entry points. So I mean, is that …
Ben: Yeah, absolutely. I 100 agree with both things you said. And I do both of them. I’ll either, I do some of like, I got to really work hard now to get back to profitability, so I’ll overtrade. And with the left hand, I’m saying, “Wow, but be very, very careful because you’ve already made a mistake. So don’t make another mistake.” So it’s like I’m going back and forth between two different things and they’re both bad.
Clay: Right. Well, the core here, which is good, is we know it’s not gambling because now you’re letting things settle down. Like you said, even if it’s just for a few minutes, that makes a big difference. I fully agree there. Now it’s just a matter of you got to reclassify a loop. Now, of course, and I know you know this, if you take a loss and you know that you followed the rules, like, oh wow, that was a good setup. It just didn’t work out, that’s not a mistake. That’s just the market is not predictable. Because if you really think that you have the perfect setup and that if it doesn’t work out, that means you made a mistake, then that implies that you think that the market is predictable and the market’s not predictable.
Clay: I mean, so you got to realize that it’s not a mistake if you get stopped out and everything was literally logical. And I know you know how to set up a trade plan. So if you did that right and you’re good with your Graham numbers and you’re good with everything and it just didn’t work out, hey, welcome to the world of the stock market not being predictable because there is no Holy Grail system out there. So you can’t default to, crap I made a mistake.
Clay: Well here we go. Now you’ve got this mistake weighing on you. And as somebody that’s competitive, you don’t like to make mistakes but you got to look at it as the market’s not predictable. It is what it is, let me find another good setup and let me go with that. Does that make any sense?
Ben: Yeah, that does make a lot of sense and I can understand that and I can live with that. And I think that’s a good angle for me to start working on is to try to … Because I have noticed that when I see a potential set up or on a normal or not normal, but I have a tendency to want to just get in right then. I have noticed a lot of times that if I wait for it and I say I’m going to short and so, but I’ll pick a price or I’ll make a price that’s a little bit better. Meaning I think that’s why I like to a lot times in the webinars, you probably don’t remember, but you’ve commented like, “Oh, you want the price to come back to you.” I’m really big on that as opposed to …
Ben: So I guess that would be, I’m looking for the price to come back to me versus a speculation trade where I’m going to get right in. Because I feel like when I get in the speculation trade, it’s just I …
Clay: I’m with you. I don’t know, 70%, 80%, I’m letting it come to me like, I’m not going to hop in right then and there. So, I totally get that feeling.
Ben: And I think that may be, is what I’ve got to just tell myself is that maybe no more speculations rights either that or I’ve got to have such a small stop that I could speculate but it’s got to be such a tiny stop. But I always feel like it’s a waste of time to make such a tiny stop that … I mean.
Clay: Yeah, honestly I think that is what I would do and I don’t have it, but for a while in my mind all I would say is like, it was like almost like a satanic chant or something, let it come to you, let it come to you, let it come to you. And you know what? Sometimes it doesn’t come to you and then you know what, it doesn’t come to you again and then it doesn’t come to you again. And those are the days, bless my wife’s heart. I mean I get cranky, like what is going on with this stupid market? Nothing is filling me. What is going on? You know what? Screw it. And now I recognize the voices I’m just going to get right in because nothing is coming to me. But as soon as you just hop right in, then I’m like, oh crap. And then things spin out of control. But you know what, that’s just …
Clay: And that’s why I go back and for me, I ask myself, okay Clay, if nothing comes to you and you don’t make any trades, what changes in your life? I get pissed off. Oh no, no, no. What really changed in your life? I get air. No, no, no. Does anything change in life besides you being a drama queen about your emotions? Well, no, nothing changes out. I’ll be okay. The bills will still get paid. Well then what are you freaking out about you bozo? Calm down, let the price come to you.
Clay: And I mean I think that for me that’s what I always had to do because, you’re speaking my language when you’re just like, if I were to just let it come to me, it would’ve worked out. I’ve been there tons of times, which is why back in the day, just let it come to you, let it come to you. And like I said, even now, sometimes it won’t come to you, but that’s okay. That’s why I keep circling back to playing the what if you don’t have any trades. You know what, that’s actually a successful trade because you wanted the price to come to you. It didn’t come to you, oh well find something else.
Clay: So I mean I feel like I’m ranting and raving, but like I said, you struck the cord because I can totally relate and I get it. I really do get where you’re coming from. And I think that would go a long, long way. First step, let the market settle down, which you’ve already been doing, and then just let the price come to you. Especially with those wider stop-losses. If you do the smaller position size or whatever, I think that was a good idea to just get your stop loss a little bit wider, but let the price just come to you and at that point, go ahead.
Ben: I already wrote that down.
Ben: Let it come to me, so that’s going to be my new mantra.
Clay: Yeah, I’m serious. Do the satanic chant, let it come to me. Let it come to me. And if it doesn’t, think about it. Worst case, if it doesn’t come to you, what’s the worst case? You don’t lose any money. Now, sure you don’t make any money, but you don’t lose any money. If you just hop right in, the risk there potentially is, now I get it, you could make money, but I mean, you could actually lose money there and now you’re going to be thinking, well crap, I didn’t let the price come to me and I want it to.
Clay: But I mean if you let the price come to you, and again, this is under the assumption that everything else is logical, stop losses, the entry point price that you want it to come down to. Assuming all that is logical and it fills you and then you just get stopped out, welcome to the wonderful world of not having an exact perfect system and not being able to predict everything. I’ve done that game many times you’re like, well, if I would have just let the price come to me, or if you’re thinking about guiding and you’re like, wait a second, no, I want the price to come to me. And then it goes to you and you’re like, hey, look, that actually worked out. It’s crazy how that works out.
Clay: But, that to me is what’s … What I would definitely work on is just let the price come to you, just let it go to you. And if you feel … Because yeah-
Ben: Well I think that’s a great idea.
Clay: Because it sounds like a, that’s going to really take care of you forcing trades, and b, it’s going to take care of you just not getting in because now I suppose of course, if the price starts to come to you and then all a sudden you cancel the order, which in some cases you should, right? If a price takes a breath and those situations, you know what I mean? When a price takes a breath.
Clay: In those situations? you would want to cancel that order. Does that make sense?
Ben: Right, right. Yes.
Clay: Okay. All right. I just want to make sure, I mean, I’m trying to talk in. So yeah, but I mean, if the price is acting in the way … I mean, if it is rubber banding or whatever down to you, I mean, yeah, you’re not going to … Just let it come to you.
Ben: Right, right.
Clay: And that’s it. So, I think that did me wonders and that helped me out a lot, because some people, I mean, I want to say hooch and I mean, they’re so good at the speculation ones. They’re just, no, I’m getting in now. And I get in then, and I mean, they’re just whatever.
Ben: I know. It is amazing, it’s-
Clay: For me, I’ll do it like I said, maybe 30%, 20% of the time, if I think that, oh that cliff’s going to fall. But for the most part, no, just fake breakdown, fake breakout, just let the price come to you and let things work their way out. But I think two, three pronged attack really well I guess four prong. Though, you actually, you’re doing a great job now that I think about it. You’ve already reduced position size so that you could give yourself a wider stop loss, smart.
Clay: You’ve already learned to let the market settle down, smart. And I love how you’re like, “Ben, what are you doing? This is total gambling.” So I mean really you’ve admitted to yourself because yeah, if literally what you’re doing is well you know as soon as the market opens I’m just going to get in either way because I mean I’ve got a 50% chance it’ll go up. Yeah. Then that’s definitely totally gambling.
Ben: That’s exactly what I was [crosstalk 00:49:25].
Clay: Yeah. And you’ve realized that, you’ve backed off that. So now it’s literally just can you fight the demons and can you believe in the chant, let the price come to you and can you deal with the consequences of sometimes the price doesn’t come to you and can you realize that really you being pissed off, you being irritated, you being grouchy is just you being a drama queen about your emotions. Because quite literally nothing else changes in your life. Bills will still be paid, everything else is okay.
Clay: So the only reason why is because you’re being a drama queen and I’m the same exact way. Like I said, if you stop and break it down, you’re like, wait a second, so you didn’t make any trades?
Ben: No big deal.
Clay: Yeah. No big … Why are you so upset about it? Because your feelings are hurt Clay, because your ego didn’t get massaged, because you can’t walk around and say, yeah I had a green day? I’ll admit I want to be able to say I have a green day and it rubs me the wrong way if I can’t say that. But it’s like that’s egotistical Clay, who cares? That’s literally you being a drama queen about your emotions. I know you haven’t talked much, but-
Ben: No, I’m fine.
Clay: You finally hit the nerve. I really do believe because I can relate. Just let the price come to you.
Ben: Exactly. That’s a great little tangent to get on for me is to work on that and if I don’t get-
Clay: And the second thing would be just if you get stopped out again under the assumption that everything else is logical and if you get stopped out, don’t let yourself default to, oh, I made a mistake. No, it just didn’t work out.
Ben: It just didn’t workout. Yeah.
Clay: It just didn’t work out. The markets are not predictable. I mean you’ve got to really think about that, and realize that even if you have the perfect setup and everything is, you execute flawlessly and logically you can still lose money in a trade because the stock market is not predictable. And for somebody to say no, if you have a perfect setup and you execute in the perfect or in a logical way, you will make money. That person is saying that there is some Holy Grail system out there. That person is saying that somehow the markets are predictable and that person would be a liar because the markets are not predictable.
Clay: And even if you operate in other ways, you can’t let your mind default to it was a mistake. Now, of course, if you don’t let the price come to you, that would be a mistake. And if that occurs, and I know that that’s just a demon we all battle is, oh crap I made a mistake. Well, don’t let one mistake turn into two mistakes. But yeah, if everything else, that’s the only thing you’ve got to be aware is if, hey, everything worked out. It was a losing trade, but hey, nothing’s predictable. It is what it is. Let the price come to me on the next setup and let’s see how this one goes. And you just got to let it roll with that. So, let the price come to you and you’ve got to redefine, you can’t be using the word mistake too hastily because in some situations it’s not a mistake. That’s just how the market is.
Ben: And I agree. And I think that when I do get into a trade with a better entry that I know was better because I did wait and it doesn’t go right, I think I don’t think of that as a mistake. I think I am to that point, but-
Clay: Good, good.
Ben: It’s getting that to happen because there’s been-
Clay: Yeah, you probably feel good about you actually let the price come to you. Am I right there?
Ben: Actually I feel great when that happens because I feel proud of myself. Like wow, you did it.
Clay: Yes. We’re speaking the same language. You are not alone my friend. As weird as it is and I get it, you’re training buddies, my wife, no, they’re not going to have a talk. They’re not going to have any understanding, but yes, just simply letting the price come to you. And then if you do let that happen and you get filled, I mean that’s like a victory in and of itself. And if it doesn’t work out, who cares? At least I let the price come to me and I got the entry point that I wanted. And that goes full circle to the whole, the real estate thing, you don’t make money when you sell, you make money when you buy and if you feel best and if your trade plan is truly based around and you feel most comfortable about letting the price come to you, then hey, that is your real estate plan, right?
Clay: You’re going to make money by your entry point and if the entry point doesn’t hit you … Now you’re easy. If other people were like, “No, I’m a full time trader. This is my only source of income.” Well that’s a whole nother can of worms and it’s like psychology jump ropes you got to go through in that situation. But I mean you and I, we got it a lot easier where if we don’t get filled, if the price doesn’t come to us and we have one of those days where no trades occur, okay. The only thing at threat is us being emotional drama queens. But yeah, I totally agree just letting the price come to you and get filled. Oh man, that’s such a good feeling in and of itself.
Ben: I laughed so hard when you said that and you got so excited about that because that’s the exact same feeling I get. I go like, wow, I held off and I let the price come to me, that’s like a victory in and of itself. And so it is very funny, and that’s why I laughed so hard when you got excited about that because we have the exact same feeling.
Clay: Yeah, no, Australia’s are nutcases. Now, I think if I understood right, you hinted at or you were saying that, but usually if I get a good entry point, I notice things work out a little bit better. Did you make some sort of reference to that earlier on that that seems to be maybe something that you’ve noticed is actually when you’re disciplined in regards to entry points?
Clay: Not necessarily is it guaranteed to work out, but you’ve noticed, oh, things actually work out a little bit better.
Ben: Right. Totally. Totally.
Clay: Okay. All right. So I mean that’s truly the issue was you just, you weren’t getting the entry points. And the reason why you were sometimes hesitating was because, well that was usually, it sounds like after. Because every day you started off with the whole, hey, fresh new day, let’s see what happens. But if you start off with that attitude, then yeah it’s amazing how well things work out if you just get the entry point that you want to get and don’t settle for an entry point.
Ben: Yeah, I think that’s the key is to not settle. Because, I get that. I go, “Oh, I really want to make a trade. Really want to make a trade.” That’s the other interesting thing, not a day goes by that I don’t make a trade. So, I mean, it would be interesting that if I could be so disciplined that I could actually get a day without a trade. I mean, literally, I will make a trade every single day. And I think it would be interesting if I could apply this principle so well that I could actually go through a session for a couple of hours or however long I’m here to not actually have a trade. That would be an interesting thing. I mean, it would be a good thing.
Clay: And to overcome that and to make that happen, you just literally, I don’t know if you want to have another sticky, don’t be an emotional drama queen because that’s all that’s at threat is if you were to have a day where you didn’t make anything, who cares? It literally doesn’t change your life at all other than maybe rubbing your emotions the wrong way. But you’re absolutely right. You should have days where you make zero trades because if you don’t, something’s wrong. You are forcing it in one way or the other. At some point over the next month, you should have at least a day where you don’t make any trades because the price just never came to you. It never came to the price that you wanted and you didn’t settle for it. And that’s fine. That’s a successful day. That’s a sign of a successful strategy.
Clay: Because I mean, I guess I don’t know that for sure, but I’m pretty sure all strategies out there are going to have situations where rules, criteria are not met. And if they’re not met well then the successful trader is, well, they’re not going to force a square peg through a round hole and that’s eventually going to lead to not having to trade. Now, if it’s like Clay, man, I mean the price hasn’t come to me for the past seven weeks. That would be a problem that your entry points are way not logical.
Clay: So I mean of course this pendulum swings both ways. But even like, “Oh man, Clay, this is ridiculous. The past couple of days I haven’t had any trades. I’m getting frustrated.” Listen, that’s okay. Couple of days, that’s fine. But if you’re like, “Yeah man, I’m like nine months. I’ve never had any non-trade days.” You might be forcing things a little bit, I think you’re settling for some of those trades.
Clay: So, I think I would highly just recommend, I’m not saying to make it happen, but just be aware that you should probably have a day over the next month or a day or two or even three maybe where it’s just like, oh yeah, I didn’t have any trades that must mean I’m not settling. Just like in golf, you don’t want to … Well I don’t know. You don’t want to settle for like … Yeah, I don’t know how to take that one point.
Ben: I don’t know where you’re going with that one either. But anyway, I get what you’re saying.
Clay: Yeah, I was going to say … Well I don’t know if you can … No, here I am going to see you challenge me now I got it.
Ben: All right.
Clay: If you are financially able to pick out a beautiful, beautiful driver, I don’t know, golf brands, but a golf, just the … Who’s the top golf brand out there?
Ben: You got PING and you got TaylorMade.
Clay: Okay PING. PING. So a PING, oh man, you can do that because you are financially okay to do that and get it. Or you can just settle for some other bootleg, I don’t know Walmart, golf club or whatever. In your case, you are financially able to do so. How so? Well, you don’t need to settle for that because well nothing, you can afford financially to not make any trades so you don’t have to settle for some sort of entry point because who cares? It doesn’t matter. You are not forced. Just like because of your financial circumstances, you’re good to go. So don’t settle for some bootleg little driver when you know that you can afford and you can hold out and you can wait for that PING driver to make the purchase on that. That made sense in my mind. I don’t know if it made sense for you.
Ben: That’s pretty good, pretty good. I’ll give you that. You pulled that one.
Clay: The point here Ben is you do not need to settle. You are in no way, shape or form do you need to be settling for an entry point. You can demand and you can wait for the entry point that you want to get. And it’s really as simple as that and sometimes it’s just not going to happen and yes, it’ll be frustrating. Yes, it’ll be irritating. Yes, you’re going to be like, man, what’s wrong? Nothing’s wrong. You actually just followed the rules of your system and you are disciplined to not settle for an entry price. So, I feel like we’ve made good headway here.
Ben: I think that’s a good start. I think that is some good headway. I think that could maybe be … I mean I’ve got more problems than just that let me tell you. But that would be probably going along way to maybe solving some of the other ones too, because I think that not getting into your position correctly can have a cascading effect. Whether it’s-
Clay: Now, it’s everything. I mean, even now of course you can always be like, “Well, I always sell too soon.” Well, you know what, that’s a secondary problem because if you’re selling too soon because you got a great entry point and then you went into the green and then you sold too soon, again yes, that would need to be worked on. But at least you’ve got a good entry point and you can take that next step to just having the opportunity to manage the trade properly from that point of view.
Clay: But yeah, you’re never going to have the opportunity enough to sell too soon in the green if you’re not getting yourself those entry points that you want to get in the first place. So, well said on your part. It’s a step where if you get that first step down, everything starts to cascade and it’s almost like that first domino that doesn’t imply that there’s not going to be any other issues. But it’s definitely a big part of it.
Ben: Definitely. Definitely, and yeah that’s exactly right. I mean what you say about that even selling too soon is a symptom of getting in improperly because you’ve let it. Because that’s happened. I mean, I’ve got in the trade incorrectly. I’ve held through it till it gets green again, and then I’m so excited to be out of the red that I’ll just almost sell the second it turns green. So.
Clay: Yes, exactly. Or you’ve taken a losing trade and then you get one, you’re like, “Oh crap, this is actually a winning trade. If I sell now, it’s a winning trade and I can … all right. Oh.” And it’s like, okay, well, but those are all things that we’ll take care of themselves. Let me put it this way. It’s not an illusion when you’re hanging like, I almost feel like if I just didn’t hop in a trade right then or didn’t do a speculation or just got the entry point that I somehow want, I feel like things kind of … No, that’s not a feeling. That’s definitely what was going on because so much more things go in your favor when you get the entry point that you feel like is justified one final time for more [inaudible] assuming everything else is logical.
Clay: I mean if it’s just a terrible entry point and makes no sense, even though he let it come to him, but if the party said he wanted it to come to him, doesn’t make any logical sense from a charting perspective. Well then this kind of is all a moot conversation, but I know that you know how to read a chart and operate under what would make sense in that regard. And look at this, I feel like we’ve come pretty much full circle and we’re just at essentially the hour mark.
Ben: Look at that.
Clay: I mean it’s almost like this was scripted or drawn up or something like that. I don’t think we could ever do this again.
Ben: I mean it’s like you’ve done this before.
Clay: This was fun. This was a challenge to break things down. But I think that’s why I got so excited and started to rant because I was like, oh wait, it was hiding right in front of me. It was the same exact problem that I suffer from. And to you as listeners out there, maybe that’s what … Just let the price come to you. Maybe that’s all it is, and it’s like Ben said, there’s always other things to work on, but I mean, something such as just really nailing down your entry point will go a long way.
Clay: Hey, let me ask this. Guess the title of this podcast?
Ben: Let it come to me.
Clay: There. Oh, close enough.
Clay: Let it come to you.
Ben: Let it come to you. Got it, okay
Clay: Oh yes, exactly. That’s going to … Or maybe a form of that, but yes, that is going to be you nailed it. Well done.
Ben: It’s all about me, so let it come to me. So anyway, you know that’s a-
Clay: That is true, I should let it come to you and I’ll put that in quotes. And that’s going to be the motto is just going forward, let the price come to you and don’t settle, don’t settle. And then also remember, assuming all else was logical, the market is not predictable. Therefore, there’s no such thing as a Holy Grail system, so if you lose money on a trade and as long as you got the entry point that you wanted, then oh well it wasn’t a mistake, it just happens. Move on to the next one. So yeah, you can work from that, right?
Ben: I can work from that. So yeah, I don’t know if this is going to be so exciting for other people to listen to, but it was sure helpful for me. So, that was a nice little session.
Clay: I have a sneaky suspicion that other people are going to be able to relate to us because as nice as it would be, and as nice as everybody likes, oh, we’re all unique individuals, oh be you. No, at the end of the day, eh, we’re all wired pretty similarly. So, I have a sneaky suspicion that there’s going to be people out there that are like, “Oh yeah, maybe that’s what was going on.” But you know what, if not, then luckily they have 200 I don’t even know what episode this will be, but they have 200 other episodes that they can go through.
Clay: But, I think for the people that have actually traded and experienced the voices and experienced some frustrations, there is a lot of good stuff in here.
Ben: That’s good. Good.
Clay: Well Ben, an hour, a little over, but this was fun. It was a challenge. It was a good time. So thank you though very much for being willing to do … You know what Ben, my last little tangent, you were like, there is going to be nothing to talk about. Nothing has occurred and here we are just, I mean we … This was good stuff.
Ben: Maybe it was because I knew it was going to be a little bit of we got to figure out what’s going wrong, which is great. But, it puts me a little in the hot seat and there’s some little uncomfortableness for me. It’s great at the end and I’m happy to have had it. But I think in the back of my mind I’m going like, this is maybe going to be a little uncomfortable for me.
Clay: Well, I feel like there’s pretty much two people out there in the world of trading. Those that realize they’re on the hot seat and then those that are just lie or ignorant or liars because I mean the minute you get off the hot seat, I feel like is when you start doing stupid thing. And whether you’ve been doing this 20 years or 20 minutes, I mean, you really got to stay in the hot seat. You got to make sure that you’re always double checking yourself, always trying to make sure you’re recognizing the voices and all that. So, I think I find zero shame with somebody being on the hot seat, and that’s the idea is not to necessarily …
Clay: Hopefully I didn’t sit here like lecture at you like I have it all figured out. If anything, my ranting and raving was based because I could totally relate to what you were going through.
Ben: Totally, totally. No, there was nothing truly uncomfortable or derogatory or demeaning at all. It was all done with a great sense of helpfulness in trying to make us all better. So.
Clay: Good. This was fun for sure. Well, Ben, thank you again for hanging out.
Ben: You are very welcome.
Clay: And, I look forward to having you back on and we’ll keep on going. Next time, we got to chip away at the next thing, but-
Ben: Let’s do it.
Clay: Yeah, let’s do it, awesome. All right, now for you as listeners though, before you leave final few things here. First, if you’re listening on iTunes or any of the other podcast players, then be sure to subscribe. And on iTunes, if you could leave us a rating that goes a long way and especially a written review that really helps us out and I would really appreciate it. And then if you’re listening at claytrader.com on the show notes page, there is a little live chat box in the bottom right hand corner. So feel free to reach out with questions, comments, suggestions, or whatever, whether or not, not necessarily just about this podcast episode, but about the community we offer, ClayTrader university and the services that we offer.
Clay: But like I said, we are there to help, but if nothing else, like I said, especially on the iTunes, if you could leave us a rating, we would really appreciate it. So thank you again to listeners. Thank you again, Ben, and we will see you all back next week.
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