Bad habits. Ugh! Regardless of where they show up in life, they’re called “bad” for a reason! When you introduce them into a setting such as trading and investing where money can be lost, they take on a whole new dynamic. The odd thing though is as obvious as it may sound to say, “bad habits need to be avoided”, it’s amazing how many traders continue to stare directly at them, yet, don’t seem them. When you’re new and you don’t know what you don’t know, one of those areas includes bad habits. This is why anytime I can talk to someone who quickly realizes the danger of bad habits and why they need to be avoided, I get excited. It offers up a great learning opportunity. Thanks for our community member John, we all get to hear some really silly things he did; however, to his credit, he quickly realized the danger (unlike many others) and began to take steps to correct and avoid future problems. John held nothing back and offered up many different rabbit holes of educational opportunity, so let’s get to it!
Clay: Hey, it’s Clay. Real quick before we get to the episode, I want to just bring to your attention one of the most common questions I get and it’s a wise question. It’s something that makes sense to be asking it. Clay, what is a good broker for a beginner? I want to trade stocks. What would you recommend? Ideally if its got zero commissions. And that would be Webull. They’re a fantastic platform. And what I like to apply is known as the platform HAT method. H-A-T. First off the H. Does the platform give you the ability to hunt for stocks, to find good stocks? Webull absolutely does. The A, the analysis. Does a platform give you the ability to analyze whatever stocks you have hunted and found? And with Webull it absolutely does. And then the T, take action. You can hunt out stocks, you can run analysis on them, but if you can’t actually take action and put everything into motion, well then a platform is not going to do you very much good. But once again, Webull is very, very beneficial for allowing you to take action with whatever sort of stocks and then strategies you are looking to take advantage of.
Clay: So are they the be all, end all? They’re not. There’s lots of good platforms out there. But when it comes to the quality of charts they give, when it comes to the zero dollar commissions and the ease at which you can sign up, they have a great app for your phone. I would say at least give them a try. So go to claytrader.com/webull and you can learn more all about them. But let’s now get to the episode.
Clay: This is the Stock Trading Reality Podcast episode 327.
Announcer: This is the Stock Trading Reality Podcast. Where you get to see the realistic side of a trader’s journey. Get inspired and stay motivated by everyday normal people who are currently on their journey to trading success. And this is your host. He’s got an awesome baby back ribs recipe, Clay Trader.
Clay: And here’s the thing, is if I can do it, I assure you, you can do it because I’m not exactly a culinary genius. I’m not exactly a chef. My specialty before these ribs was like scrambled eggs and toast. Maybe a grilled cheese if I was feeling like getting a little frisky out there, getting a little adventurous. But here’s the recipe. I don’t have enough knowledge to know. I would assume works on other smokers but I suppose I don’t know that. So I have a Traeger grill. And again, I don’t think that really makes a difference. But just to add in a little bit more context. So on the Traeger grill the ribs are done in three hours. So you put them on the grill after you season them. And I like to use mustard so the seasoning sticks. But put them on the grill at 305. So put them on the grill. 30 minutes later you open it up. You have a spray bottle, you spray like apple juice. I’ve been using apply cider. But I mean really from my understanding you could use any kind of juice or whatever just to help keep them moist or whatever and you spray them after 30 minutes. You close it up.
Clay: 30 minutes goes by again, open it up, spray them again. 30 minutes goes by, spray them again. 30 minutes go by, spray them again. And then before the final 30 minutes … And this is my twist on the recipe is you don’t spray them again but that’s when you put the barbecue sauce on and then you turn up the heat to 325 for that final 30 minutes. So it’s 300 and then the final 30 minutes you don’t spray it anymore, you put on the barbecue sauce for the final 30 minutes. 325. And then from there you kind of just take the meat temperature and they are fantastic. They’re so good. I’ve tried the 321s. But the problem with that is that’s six hours. Six hours. And like I said, maybe I should give that another try but from strictly a time management perspective I just like being able to knock the things out in three hours and it works out well. My kids like them, my wife likes them and I’m looking forward to cooking them for … Who knows? Maybe someday we’ll have a meetup where the Traeger is and you can try them yourselves and give me some good constructive feedback.
Clay: But that is my baby back rib recipe. It’s taken a little while to get it fine tuned but for me, I’m happy with it and I hesitate there because I’m not exactly going to call myself … Like I have a fine pallet. The first couple of rounds were a little rough but it’s to the point now where they turn out just right.
Clay: Now, great discussion here and … It’s hard to … As I stumble on my words. Because it is hard to explain kind of something that seems so obvious. Meaning I get it’s obvious to say hey bad habits are bad, bad habits should be avoided. And yeah, that seems obvious but because when you don’t know what you don’t know, one of the parts of not knowing and one of the things that you don’t know is well, you don’t necessarily recognize what a bad habit is. You would, right? Don’t do something if you don’t know what you’re doing. Well, of course that’s a bad habit. Yep. People are always doing it. But point here being is, our guest John offers up a good illustration of how … I mean he definitely did some really silly things and we laugh about it and I have nothing but respect for him for just being able to openly share those things that he’s did and some of the logic that he used. But to his credit and where I think the big learning lessons are coming from is, just his ability to relatively quickly recognize all right, wait a second, there are bad habits showing up here, bad habits are bad, I need to fix this. I need to avoid any further ones.
Clay: And just the dynamics that occurred, the viewpoints that had make this a little bit easier to be like okay, maybe you’re in that same spot right now where ideally this discussion will maybe kind of push you over the hump where you can just kind of admit to yourself, yeah, as much as I don’t think I’m having bad habits, I actually am. So there’s a lot of good stuff here. So let’s get to it and hear about John and his journey.
Clay: John, welcome to the show.
John: Hey Clay. How’s it going?
Clay: It’s going pretty well and I appreciate you being able to start early. Flexibility is a good thing and I’m looking forward to getting … Do we know each other? Have we interacted before? I have no idea. I’m totally going into this one pretty blind.
John: I’ve been in a couple of your free webinars but I don’t typically talk too much in the chat.
Clay: Okay. Okay. And that’s fine. I’m just trying to get a little bit of a baseline. And for you listeners out there that may sound like, what kind of research is this? But remember the premise of the show is, this is just unscripted and it’s a situation where I want it to be like John and I were just talking as traders and you get to be a fly on the wall and listen about his journey and hopefully we can all learn something or at least maybe not learn something but just would be reminded of something even if you’re a veteran trader. So with that context being established, John let’s just jump right in. Where did all this start for you? Where did you hear about the markets? What sort of things played out that brought you to the point where you made that decision that you wanted to get a little bit more active with it?
John: I always knew about the markets. I knew they existed but I never really got too much into it. My family wasn’t really into it too much. My dad had traded before but had never actually … He never talked about it. So I didn’t really have too much going into it. A buddy of mine … Actually I think it was 2018, we were playing on Xbox and he was just like, “Buy Dogecoin.”
Clay: In 2018?
Clay: Please tell me you mortgaged your house and everything and bought it back then.
John: Oh no. Actually at the time I had only put in 10 bucks. I’m actually looking at it right now. My first initial buy was $10 at .002 cents.
Clay: Point zero, zero. Do you still have it?
John: Well, I actually made a beginner mistake. It wasn’t a mistake but in hindsight it was.
Clay: Yes. Yes. Hindsight is a cruel judge.
John: During that first spike when it went up to like seven cents I ended up selling then. Actually I don’t know why but I decided to sell all of my shares which were like 4,500. It was a good profit but-
Clay: I mean I was going to say … I know why you sold. I can’t even do the percentage. If you got in at double 00s and you sold at seven cents, what kind of gain was that?
John: Let me see.
Clay: And that’s got to be well over thousands of percent, right?
John: Yeah. Definitely.
Clay: Yeah, okay. All right. So thousands of percent. And before I forget though, you mentioned your dad traded. Was this … I don’t know your age, I don’t know your dad’s age. Was he trading like back in the day where’d you have to call in orders or is he doing like online type stuff?
John: To be quite honest, I have no idea. Literally the only knowledge I have is that he said that he’s been in the market before. He doesn’t talk to me about that kind of stuff.
Clay: Interesting. Interesting. Okay, yeah. I was just kind of curious. But all right well … So anyways, back to 2018. You’re playing Xbox and your buddy tells you to buy Dogecoin?
Clay: Did you just trust him? Was there some sort of research that went into that? I mean granted, I guess it was $10 so you probably didn’t do an epic amount of research.
John: Well, at the time, not really. Like I said I didn’t have any knowledge of the markets. I just kind of saw … My first Google ad I guess was how to get into the stock market and then I think Robinhood showed up on the listing so I made an account. I actually ended up getting a couple of referrals and that was what gave me the money to put into Doge. And actually I looked back at it again and it looks like I bought Ethereum Classic before I bought Doge. And that was at 12 cents which I don’t have that anymore. I wish I still did because it’s at like $90 now.
Clay: Was all those purchased because of your friend that was just your gaming buddy?
John: Yeah. Pretty much. I didn’t really have any knowledge of the markets at all. He said buy this and I went okay.
Clay: Did he have a lot of experience or was he kind of just one of these people that was jumping in too?
John: Same thing. He just heard the name. He was like, “Oh, that’s funny,” so went ahead and bought it.
Clay: Well I mean, sometimes that’s all it takes is if enough people have heard the name that can be a scanner in and of itself. Well you get those … I kind of interrupted you so I mean, you were in 2018 and I’ll let you pick it up from wherever makes the most sense at that point.
John: So at that time I had just kind of let Doge sit there. I don’t think I did anything with it until that surge up at like seven cents. Then I started really getting into it. That surge was kind of what made me think about it some more and make me want to get into trading in general. I didn’t know exactly what I wanted to do or where I wanted to go with it. I just knew that it had potential to make real money. And I was just trying to figure out where to go with learning more about it. And then I found your podcast, which incredible. I love this podcast. And then you mentioned at one point your courses and I knew I wanted to get into it but I didn’t have the money at the time.
Clay: Out of curiosity, from a timeline perspective, where does all this kind of play out as occurring?
John: Probably at the midpoint of 2020.
Clay: Okay. Okay. So we’ll call it June-ish of 2020.
John: Yeah. Somewhere in there.
Clay: Did the corona … Did that have anything to do with you being locked at home or anything or was this just … That was almost didn’t play any role in any of this?
John: No, I actually got an department manager role at the store that I work at right now because of corona. Nobody wanted to work and they were like, “Do you want the job?” Sure.
Clay: You got to love supply and demand. If you’re willing to work I mean you would just automatically add immense value to you so nice, nice. But you being locked at home or whatever, that didn’t have anything … You were just noticing how things were playing out and you made the decision that you wanted to take things more serious then?
Clay: So you found the podcast. Out of curiosity, do you happen to remember what your first episode was?
John: Well, mainly I listen to the podcast at work so I just kind of threw it on Spotify and I think I started backwards. Don’t remember which one I started on but it was like three something and then I worked my way down.
Clay: Oh man. So probably got worse and worse and worse as my … I don’t know. You should probably start at my first one when I was crapping my pants because I was so nervous. Who knows? I’m probably still just as bad as I was. That’d be an interesting experiment. Is there a reverse evolution of me just getting worse and worse as time goes by? That’s a side tangent. So all right well, you mentioned the podcast. You knew that you wanted the course, you just didn’t have the money. So how did things play out from that point then?
John: So I put a little bit more money into it and I sold that Doge, was funded a little bit more. I started out watching YouTube videos on pretty much people like hey, this is going to blow up. I was pretty much just being a sheep following other people, which I realize now it’s not a good idea. It’s better to know what you’re doing.
Clay: Right. What did you think at the time? And I ask this from a perspective, I get it now that you look back and now that you know, it easy to be like oh yeah, I was totally being a sheep. I’m asking from the angle of I can almost guarantee somebody is listening to this and probably thinking the same thing. Like wait, what? I’m on YouTube looking for things. So what did you actually think you were doing at that point? Was that like some sort of research? Did you think you were listening to analysts? In your mindset, what was that actually doing for you from a strategy perspective?
John: When I first started out there really wasn’t a strategy. There was a couple YouTubers that were like hey, this is going to explode, get in now. I didn’t really do any research. I didn’t even know how to research.
Clay: Did you think this was your research? My research is find other people that know what you’re doing and I’ll just do what they’re telling me to do?
John: Pretty much.
Clay: Okay. But you would now agree that that’s not actually research right from your experience?
John: Absolutely not.
Clay: Okay. So there we go. There’s a valuable, valuable learning lesson because the tricky part of all this is it’s easy to look back and be like, “Oh yeah, I wasn’t researching, I had no strategy.” Well yes, that’s John talking with knowledge now in his corner. But at the time John was like, “I really don’t know what I’m doing but hey, these people seem to know what they’re doing. These people are making some bold proclamations. These people apparently have success. So I’m just going to listen to them.” And as John just said, at the time yeah, that can seem logical when you don’t know what you don’t know, but John now knows stuff and here he is just saying yeah, don’t … Right John? I don’t want to speak for you. You would advise against going and using that YouTube video, listening to just kind of random people approach, right?
John: Oh yeah, absolutely. There’s a point where you can get the base knowledge of it but it’s not going to carry you if you choose this as a career.
Clay: Good point. It comes up a lot but can never be stated enough. Base knowledge is great, base knowledge is needed. It’s definitely part of things. Just because I can say candlestick to you and just because you’re like oh well most people think that that means that you use something when the lights go out, no, no, no. I know that it’s part of … I know that there’s four data points. I know what a candlestick is. Okay that’s great. But that’s just base knowledge. Just because you know what a candlestick is, just because you know what a support or resistance is, once again, that’s great, that’s required, that’s needed but there is definitely a whole lot more to it as John is alluding to there. So I mean do you remember any of these? I guess I’m assuming, did you follow some of these YouTubers and their, I don’t even know what you want to call it, recommendations, picks or whatever? Where you following them and putting real money into the market?
John: Yeah. I didn’t put too much into it. I didn’t put like my rent into it. It was just $20 here and there.
Clay: That’s good.
John: Some of them did turn out pretty well. Call it fools gold. But at the time I didn’t know that. There was one where-
Clay: Do you remember the tickers or whether they were cryptos or whatever?
John: This was during the Zomedica area and the GameStop. I didn’t get into GameStop. But I did get into Zom. And I made a little bit of money on it but then it completely crashed. But yeah, those are a couple of them that I got into.
Clay: And I mean now that you know what you know, you also probably recognize the fact that even the ones that you did well on back in mid, let’s just call when this was all occurring, 2020, basically the entire market was just going up and up and up. So while nothing was guaranteed, there’s a high chance that anybody could have started a YouTube channel been like hey, do this, this, this and this and there was a high likelihood that they would have probably looked really smart. Seeing how 2020 played out after it bottomed out of course, I mean things were just basically going straight up.
John: Oh yeah.
Clay: And I’m not trying to talk down. I’m not trying to be a hater if you will. Just be always a little careful. Okay, when did this YouTube channel start? Really, they just started this thing X amount of time ago. And again, I’m not saying that that automatically means that they don’t know what they’re talking about. I’m just saying you got to be very careful out there. Because depending on certain market dynamics, the market can make people look smart when in all actuality it’s making everybody look smart because basically everything’s going up. So just one of those situations where you got to be careful and I’m trying to tread lightly because I don’t want to come across like I’m discouraging people or talking down on people. John, I don’t want to speak for you but it sounds like you would agree that YouTube can be a very tricky place when you’re new and don’t know what you don’t know. Is that a fair statement?
John: Oh yeah. Completely agree.
Clay: Well, I guess we’ll see how this continues to play out for you. But you were it sounds like kind of just random results. Because you mentioned you had some wins but you also has some losses. I mean where you break even? What was your account … Actually the status of it?
John: Actually, I’ve never received any horrible losses. For the most part I’ve been pretty in the green. Actually let me pull it up right now. I’ve never crashed my account, but as of right now I’m up like $2 on the day and on the year-
Clay: Well, back during that … Are you looking at that point during the journey is what I’m really asking about right now. When you were just kind of the YouTube puppet days if you will, we’ll call them.
John: Actually at that time period I was actually doing okay. Nothing really bad. Maybe a couple of $20 losses here and there. The wins at that time had taken over the losses.
Clay: Okay. And how are you determining when to sell? So back in … Like I said, we’ll call it the YouTube puppet days. What was your actually risk management strategy?
John: I’d say nonexistent. I just was like okay, that’s a good amount of money. I’ll take it before it crashes again.
Clay: But it sounds like you had some losing trades though, right?
John: Yeah, a couple of them.
Clay: So what dictated when you finally just waved the white flag on those?
John: I had seen that it was going down for quite a while and I didn’t think it was going to come back up.
Clay: Okay, fair enough. So you’re just like, yeah, all right well I’m just going to get out but there wasn’t actually any structure. Okay, well, I will give you credit though. At least you didn’t like hold and hold and hold and dime and hand it up and then all of a sudden you’re still holding some of these positions as you wait for them to come back up. Did any of those positions … Are you glad you sold where you did? Like you look at them right now and you’re like wow, that thing got even … Well I’m thinking of ZOM right now. ZOM is down at 80 cents or something. I mean, is that one that you’re glad you probably cut loose then?
Clay: How high did that one go? I can’t remember. That thing was a couple of dollars wasn’t it?
John: Looks like the 52 was $2.91.
Clay: Okay, wow. Yeah. And again, just for reference sake for listeners, it’s now down around maybe 80 cent mark. Well, I guess really I’m waiting for something to really go wrong. That brings you to the point where you’re like man, I really don’t know what I’m doing. Because as of right now, you just admitted that during those YouTube puppet days you were actually doing pretty well. So I mean, is there some sort of horror story we’re going to come on that changed the trajectory of things? I guess I’ll let you pick back up. So pick it up from the YouTube John puppet days.
John: So the way that I played it out in my head was I did small plays so that I had minimal risk. So I guess there kind of was the risk management there. But I didn’t really know it at the time. It was more so get into small areas and then take what I can and get out what when I can’t. But from the beginning I knew that I didn’t know anything, if that makes sense. So I wanted to make sure that before I got into the markets I knew everything that I possibly could which led me to learning about you and your courses. So that’s kind of where I came from. I knew that I was going to lose money if I didn’t know what I was doing. And that’s where I started out.
Clay: Okay. But it’s still kind of crazy. You make the comment, you knew that you didn’t know anything yet really you still kept putting money in the market. But to your credit it sounds to me like that was risk … Now of course, like you said, you didn’t call it risk management. But you at least acknowledged the fact that you don’t know anything so let’s just start extra, extra small. So I mean is that pretty much why the small position sizes is where it’s coming from? Just because you really did know that you didn’t know anything?
Clay: Okay, nice. I don’t know. Maybe you would disagree with me here. I have no idea but I would … Maybe it makes sense right now. We can talk about it. If not, we can push it back. But what I always kind of hesitate is … Because I can see somebody listening and they’re thinking, “Well yeah, I really don’t know anything either. I’m clueless. I’m like John. I’m self aware. I look in the mirror and say yeah, you want to do this whole trading thing, investing thing, whatever you want to call it, but I don’t know what I’m going to do. So I’m just going to use extra, extra small money.” And the reason why I’m curious if this has played out for you or maybe not, but it seems like there’s still that window of forming and developing bad habits. Yeah, I understand that nobody’s going to be living under bridge because people are using super small amounts. However, there is still that kind of risk of yeah but, are you building a bunch of bad habits along the way because you don’t really know what you are doing? You’re not really sure if you’re behaving like you should. Knowing now what you know, did those days build any bad habits for yourself?
John: Yeah, definitely. I realize that I was leaning too heavily on other people to make my decisions. That and I knew that I shouldn’t be getting into these trades that I knew nothing really about. I should have … Actually and I did realize later on that … And I actually stopped putting money into the market at that point that I noticed that I was making these bad habits as far as not getting in at good times, getting out at bad times and not really doing any research at all on these stocks that I’m getting into.
Clay: And this may sound like kind of stupid question but a lot of people don’t do what you just said. But you said you stopped trading because you didn’t like … Basically, I don’t know if you were calling them bad habits at the time but you didn’t like, let’s just call it the way you felt. So I mean, but like why? And I ask from the reference point of, there’s a lot of people out there that they know that they don’t know what they’re doing. They know that things just kind of feel off, they feel random, yet they just keep going and going with real money. But you said no, no, I literally stopped trading with real money. What was it in your mind … I don’t even know if there’s really an answer to this. If you could offer somebody advice on how do you get over that hump? To really just say listen, just don’t trade. I know it might be fun but just don’t trade. I mean do you have any advice for the person that maybe sounds exactly like you? They know that they know yet they just keep on trading.
John: I would say to that, honestly the way I’m doing it … Actually, let me back up a little bit. I was doing live trading because I thought that I was going to have to use that income to get into your training course. So my goal was to get up to that amount. It never happened. I ended up paying for it out of different means.
Clay: Let me just … I hear it quite a bit. So I’m just curious. Because in my mind … And I’m not trying to be a jerk but that’s basically like saying hey, I want to go to medical school to become a brain surgeon but I don’t have money to be a brain surgeon so let me go and perform brain surgery on people and then when those people pay me I will use that money to go to medical school.
John: That’s exactly what it is.
Clay: But how did you justify that? Obviously that doesn’t make any sense, right? And again, I’m not bringing this up to call John stupid or anything. Because we’ve all used silly logic, myself included. But I mean I’m asking this from the reference point of just so you can see how bizarre, how crazy the human mind can get. Because I realize John, myself, you as a listener, the brain surgery analogy, that’s just common sense. That’s like well, that’s the dumbest thing ever. We all agree. But yet, this is exactly what john was saying in regards to trading. “Hey, I know I need to learn. I don’t have the money but let me go make money using the thing that I actually don’t know what I’m doing and I know I need learning.” So in your mind, which is just nonsensical, do you remember how you convinced yourself that that was actually a viable and good idea?
John: I really don’t, honestly. I honestly don’t know.
Clay: Isn’t that weird though? The human mind is such a bizarre place. Somehow something in your mind was like hey, this is a good plan, this makes sense. That’s crazy isn’t it?
Clay: Yeah. I understand for you listeners if you’ve never traded with real money … I don’t know. I think these guys … I’m telling you. The voices, the rationale that can be used is a bizarre thing. You answered already but it sounds like that whole thought process did not really workout very well?
John: No. Absolutely not.
Clay: And what was your strategy at that point? I mean, did you think you were a day trader or a swing trader or were you just an investor? But like what was your actual … I use strategy very loosely here. But what was the strategy that you were using that you thought was going to give you the money so that you could then get the classes?
John: I was swing trading on top of doing some investing behind that.
Clay: Okay. Now, with the knowledge you have, were you actually doing swing trading or is that just what you thought you were doing?
John: That’s just what I thought I was doing.
Clay: Okay. And I mean what was your means to find these swing trades at that point? Are you still using YouTube? What was your “scanner”, if you will, to find your potential trade ideas?
John: It was mostly YouTube and then a couple of the groups on Facebook.
Clay: Okay. So you were still just flat out depending on basically other people?
Clay: Okay. And I guess at what point did you realize that hey, this whole performing brain surgery on other people so they can pay me to go to medical school logic, when did that kind of smack you upside the head and say, “Hey John, that’s not very good logic. It’s not quite working out.”? Did you have a super bad trade or was it a string of trades? What kind of finally made that light bulb go off for you?
John: One of the trades that the YouTuber I was watching suggested was an options trade. Which at the time I had no idea how options work. I had a tiny bit of knowledge but I had never been in a trade before like that. So I got into it. It was like an $80 option. I don’t even remember what it was.
Clay: Sorry, not to interrupt but along with the theme of the mind is a crazy place, some YouTuber recommends options, you don’t even know what options are. You’ve never traded an option. But then you put on an options trade. Did I understand that right?
John: For the most part. I did have a little bit of knowledge but it wasn’t near what I should have had at the time.
Clay: I’m guessing your knowledge was you knew what a put was, you knew what a call was and you knew how to enter those. Is that a fair summery?
Clay: So it goes back to just because you know what a candlestick is, just because you know what support and assistance are doesn’t actually mean you know what you’re doing. So I love it. Thank you for being so candid and just honest by the way. It makes you sound silly but we all have the silly moments. We’ve all had silly moments and we’re all still going to have those every now and then. So I really do appreciate you just admitting this stuff because I get it. It can make you be like who is this? But we’ve all been there. If you’re honest with yourself we’ve all had those things where you look back and you’re just like, what was I thinking? So you are in an option and I guess I’ll let you pick up from that. So sorry to interrupt but I thought we had a good little rabbit hole there once again and yeah, this is some good stuff. So yeah, pick it up from that point.
John: I got in on an option and it got towards the end and like I said, it was only an $80 buy in so I ended up losing the $80 and I realized that that’s just not a viable option. I can’t go off of what other people say, especially when I don’t know what I’m doing.
Clay: With all due respect, $80, that doesn’t seem … I mean that seems like a pretty cheap wake up call.
John: In the grand scheme of things, yes. But I am starting out with a very small budget. Even right now, my investment portfolio’s only like $600. So I still don’t have that much to put into it just yet. I’ve planned on once I have the information in practice down I can build off of what I have now.
Clay: Right. But I mean to be fair though, yeah, it might be “small” but I mean, $80, that could have been some sort of margin thing. That could have been something where it was 80 with a zero behind it all of a sudden because you were using leverage or something. So I mean all things considered I would say that … And really was it that one losing trade that pretty much woke you up?
John: Pretty much.
Clay: Yeah. So I like that. I like that how the light bulb seems to be going on pretty quick for you when you kind of realize, wait a second, what’s going on? So you take that $80 loss, where did things go from there?
John: From there I actually stepped back almost completely. I still have my investment portfolio running, but I haven’t taken a single swing trade since then. I just realized at that point the … At this point, I think just recently after that, I had bought into the courses. So I stepped back from trading completely to study up.
Clay: And is that where you are at right now then? Just in straight up study mode?
Clay: Okay, cool. Did you just accept that your retail management thing or is that what you accepted back in the June-ish timeframe when COVID was locking everything down?
John: Yeah. I had taken that during the lockdown.
Clay: Okay. And I just bring that up because you have ticker symbol J-O-B and you’re not in some sort of massive rush and I don’t want to answer for you but I would assume that that’s probably why you were able to just say, “You know what, I’m just going to study now. I don’t need to be trading. I just want to study.” Is that kind of a fair assumption on my part that this job that you have makes making that decision much easier?
John: Oh yeah. Definitely.
Clay: And that’s always important. I would want to just harp on that just because sometimes I get the impression that people think I want to be a trader, I got to go all in, I got to quit my job, I got to just … While I do appreciate, I do like that kind of mentality of let’s just go in, let’s be serious. Just full bore, go all in. I love the work ethic. I love that mentality. But in trading, if your only source of income, especially when you’re getting started, is coming from the markets, meaning you need to make money in order to pay rent or the gas bill or whatever, I can’t call it impossible but I can call it extremely, extremely difficult because that’s going to play so many mind games with you it’s almost ridiculous. So I mean, I would just … Right now I’m loving what I’m hearing here from John because he’s not rushing things. But a big part of him being able to approach this in a slow methodical way is he’s got a job and I get it. It drives me nuts some of these videos out there where they try to imply like jobs or for losers. Jobs are a means to an end. Jobs are there so that they can support you while you’re working on other things.
Clay: Right now John is working on other things. And am I speaking right John? I mean your job is a means to an end. Your job is what’s just making you be able to totally kind of chill out with your trading and just realize that you don’t have to rush anything?
John: Yep. Absolutely. That’s exactly how it is.
Clay: Perfect. I love it. I love it. And what are … I guess, where in the classes are you right now out of curiosity?
John: Right now I am on level twos.
Clay: Okay cool, cool. Did you have any experience with level twos before that?
John: Absolutely not.
Clay: Okay well, do you feel like you are now learning the level twos?
John: I just started on it the other day. I’m only able to watch the courses on my lunches and stuff like that so it’s slow going but I feel like I am learning a lot from it.
Clay: Well, and that goes right back to the point of it’s slow going but who really cares? You have a job, you have income coming in and that’s exactly what I was just talking about. If it’s slow going … Really, that’s how it should be. Because when people are like yeah, I got through the classes in like three weeks, it’s like okay, I’m pretty sure you missed a bunch of stuff if you’re getting through everything in a couple of weeks or whatever and pretty much every time those people always come back and say, “Yeah, I did go back and kind of review some things. I might have went a bit too fast.” And again, I appreciate the ambition, I appreciate the hustle, but that can be a very sticky situation. So you mentioned only being able to watch it on your lunch break. Are you not able to watch them at home? What do you mean by that?
John: So actually I just had my first born child a month ago.
Clay: Oh hey, congrats.
John: Thank you. Appreciate it.
Clay: Boy or girl?
Clay: What did you name him?
John: His name’s Wesley.
Clay: Oh nice. Nice. Good stuff. When I found my son’s name I googled cowboy names. I’m pretty sure Wesley was on that list so I mean that’s a strong, strong name and you got a cowboy name. But okay, you just had your first child and then I interrupted you again. Sorry.
John: Your fine. It was actually a Princess Bride reference. My wife is a huge fan.
Clay: Oh my goodness. So is mine but I’ve only seen it a couple times. So Wesley’s from Princess Bride?
John: Yeah. Okay. Okay. He’s the main character.
Clay: Whoops. So for those Princess Bride fans out there, they probably just shut off the podcast actually. They’re like okay well these guys … How do you not know who Wesley is? That’s like somebody saying to me for Dumb and Dumber, “Wait. Who’s Lloyd Christmas?” It’s like, you’ve got to kidding me. So if you’re not aware, Lloyd Christmas is the main character in Dumb and Dumber. So you have that going on. So you’re busy. Is that what you’re getting at with that?
Clay: And I mean, are you working eight hours a day or is it longer? What does that look like?
John: Yeah, I work eight hours a day and then I’ve got an hour lunch in between so I get that and then come home. I do some studying when I can but like I said with the baby it’s hard.
Clay: Yeah, no, I totally get it. And I mean, you’re doing the right thing. If you were sitting here like, “Yeah, I just had my first born but I don’t take care of it at all because I got to study.” It’s like okay, well, you’re a scumbag then. So I’m glad to hear that you got your priorities in order there. And do you have any sort of idea of what you want to do? Is it still safe to say that your game plan right now is you want to do swing trading?
John: I started out swing trading and then my original goal was to get into day trading. Of course can’t with the $25,000 … I definitely don’t have that to fund it with. But I’m also open to options. Maybe micro futures. But I’m trying to take it one step at a time right now. Just trying to learn one thing and then maybe in the future go on to the next. Definitely can’t hurt to diversify but right now it’s mostly just swing trading and options.
Clay: What is your confidence level when it comes to reading a chart? Do you feel pretty good about reading charts? Do you think that there’s more work to be done? Where does that stand right now for you?
John: I’m definitely going to do some practice with the charts. I don’t think I have perfect chart vision just yet. I mean, I don’t expect to ever get perfect. But I do want to study that a little bit more before I actually start doing anything with real money.
Clay: Yeah, no, that’s very wise. And take note here. John is saying, “Yeah, I know there’s this. I know there’s options and I know there’s micro futures and [inaudible 00:40:53]. But let me just focus on other things first.” Is it fair to say that right now you are completely in the one question phase? And the one question that you need to be able to answer and it doesn’t matter if you’re trading crypto, FOREX, options, stock, anything, baseball cards, marbles, anything, you got to be able to answer this question. What do I think the price is going to do next? Again, not what do I know the price is going to do because there is no knowing. There’s no guarantees. But what do I think the price is going to do next? And that is where charts come into play. That is where technical analysis comes into play is it doesn’t matter what you trade, if you’re not any good at trying to make good, solid, valid, rational ideas of yeah, I think it’s going to move this way because of this, that, and the other, well then it doesn’t matter what you’re trading.
Clay: You can learn all the things. You can learn how to trade baseball cards. It’s still not going to do you any good if you don’t know how to actually answer that one question. So I realize there’s more that goes into it, but there’s almost not more that goes into it. At the end of the day, it all boils down to that one question. What do I think the price is going to do next? And if you don’t have a tool to answer that question, if you’re not very good at using the tool to answer that question, John, you would agree with me, you’re probably not going to be a very good trader?
Clay: Like not even a little bit?
John: You could get lucky but you’re not going to last for the long ride.
Clay: Well said. Well said. Is that pretty much where you’re at right, John? You are focused on just getting really good at answering that one question?
John: Yep. Exactly.
Clay: Awesome. I’m glad that you did bring up micro futures because I think that would be a good, viable potential for your situation. The reason being that with the futures market there’s no pattern day trading rule. But futures can be expensive. Futures can be … I won’t go down the rabbit hole. They can be risky just in the sense of losses can add up super, super fast just based on how they’re built. So it’s not like they’re risky because they’re just totally random or anything like that. They’re just … Based on the function of them, it can get a little sketchy in terms of oh wow, that loss added up quick. But as John mentioned … I don’t know. Three years ago now? Maybe even longer than that. But there is something new known as micro futures and those are just much … Hence it’s named micro so yeah, you may not make as much money but you’re also not going to have those losses build up against you. But again, that’s kind of the long way of just saying that if you are somebody that’s underneath the pattern day trading rule as far as stocks and options are concerned, there are other avenues out there.
Clay: Do you feel like you’re struggling with some things more than others right now? I guess, walk me through where you’re at right now. I know you’re on level two’s but what sort of things do you think that you’re pretty good at? Maybe what are some things that you realize that you probably still need to work on?
John: I don’t really have any problem areas at the moment. I’m more so just trying to go through it.
Clay: So what are some strengths then? What would you say some things that you feel just extra confident on?
John: I’m pretty good with trends so far. I know that’s pretty basic.
Clay: Hey, keep it simple stupid.
John: I’m a firm believer of KISS.
Clay: Absolutely. Keep it simple stupid that stands for. Don’t worry. This is not going to get awkward for any listeners out there. What are those things called? Is that an acronym?
Clay: That is an acronym? Okay.
Clay: Yeah. So you’re good with … I mean, have you done much with multiple timeframe analysis right now or are you just still strictly on let’s just learn those core foundational pieces of the different avenues of trading?
John: Yeah, pretty much. That’s pretty much it. Yeah.
Clay: Okay. And do you have any sort of favorite indicators or anything right now that you’ve kind of come across where you’re like, “Wow. I like this more than that.”? Or do you have anything where something stands out as opposed to something else?
John: Not really yet. I kind of suppose once I start looking into to it a little bit more I’ll start to figure that out. But as of right now I just kind of wanted the base knowledge. And like I said, I’ve not been in the courses for very long. Actually I was on paternity leave when I got into the courses so it’s been less than a month. So I’m still trying to figure out my way and see where I’m comfortable at.
Clay: I didn’t catch it. Did you say you’ve been in the courses less than a month?
Clay: Okay. So you’re already up to level two’s. That means you’ve done robotic trading and then you’ve done skill sharpening also?
Clay: Did you print out those guides?
John: I didn’t. I don’t have a printer.
Clay: Well, did you at least do it on the screen or whatever?
John: Yeah. I definitely took notes.
Clay: Okay. I thought I was going to have to get out the hammer and be like, what are you doing John? It sounds like you’re skimping. But nope. All right, good. Those guides, you basically kill a rainforest when you print those things out. And do you have any sort of … I don’t know if like specific date, but do you have a broad idea, any sort of timeframe of when you would like to be back in the markets with real money?
John: I have this timeframe in the back of my mind. I hope to be at least starting when my son is around probably one. I’d like to do this as a career so I can be home with him as much as possible. But yeah, once he hits about one I hope to at least start.
Clay: How old is he right now?
John: He’s about a month and a half, almost two months.
Clay: Oh. Okay. All right. I’m glad you didn’t say he’s 11 months old because I was thinking about how I could politely maybe break it to you that you’re probably not going to be trading full-time in T-minus one month. But okay, if he is a month or so, that opens up things quite a bit more. So what is your game plan in that regard? I mean, are you just putting a bunch of money aside? Because I ask from the personal finance side of things because a lot of times people want to go full-time, which is great, and a lot of people recommend different amounts of what … You better have X amount set aside for costs and stuff like that so you can trade with piece of mind. So are you starting to work on that stuff too just from a strictly personal finance side of things to build up a rainy day fund?
John: Yeah, pretty much. I’m going to start putting money away now for one, him, and then another for trading. I’m going to attempt to take it slow like I said. And I was actually watching one of your podcasts the other day at work and the guy that doesn’t go by his real name, it’s like-
Clay: There’s a lot of people that don’t go by their real name. I’m trying to think of what was-
John: He was military.
Clay: Yeah. They all blend together to me at this point so I-
John: Well, my point was the way that he did it actually sounds like a really, really good idea where he was paper trading and then once he got used to what he liked he put a couple dollars here and there into a trade while he was also paper trading. I think that’s a really, really good game plan. I think I might try to adopt that once I get comfortable enough with it.
Clay: Nice. And you’re kind of one step ahead of me in the line of questioning. I do want to talk more about your trading approach, but can I speak freely with you? Can I offer some observations to you?
Clay: Okay. But what about the personal finance approach? Meaning are you currently saving money? And I’m just saying this just to keep the math super easy. Let’s just say your living expenses per month are $100. And if you want to be able to go full-time you’re going to want … And let’s just say some people say you want at least six months worth of expenses. So you’d want to have $600 saved up in some bank account for when you go full-time trading. So are you working on that number in terms of hey, what are my monthly expenses and how much do I need to have set aside in basically let’s call it a year from now so I can try this full-time? Are you working on that number also?
John: It kind of sounds bad, but no. The way that-
Clay: And that’s fine. Hey, you know what, that’s … It does sound bad because it is bad but that’s the point of this and the point of admitting that. Because if you just start trading full-time and you don’t have any sort of slush fund, you’re going to be under so much pressure it’s going to eat you alive.
John: Oh, absolutely. But what I plan on doing, I’m not going to quit my job until I’m absolutely ready. Maybe even be trading full-time on top of my work schedule as well. That way I still have a secondary income.
Clay: Oh, well then that’s not full-time. Okay. That’s what’s throwing me off there. Now you have multiple streams of income, which is awesome, which is the route I love. So when you say full-time, you don’t actually mean full-time from a time perspective where you’re not working any other jobs?
John: I guess I did say it wrong. Right now, part-time. I do eventually want to switch over to full-time trading. But like I said, during the beginning I’m not going to do that. So I’m going to backtrack. Yes, when I start it’s going to be part-time, but I will start, once I get more into paper trading and stuff like that, make money.
Clay: So you said … When did you want to go full … And again, I probably misunderstood you. I thought you said you wanted to go full-time trading when your son turned one, which was basically, let’s just call it a year from now. But you didn’t actually mean full-time trading in the sense of quit your job?
Clay: Okay. So that’s not full-time trading then.
John: Yeah. My bad.
Clay: Got you. And that’s fine. I just wanted to make sure we’re on the same page here. Well, good. That makes me feel much better about the situation and … What was that? Was that your phone?
John: Yeah. My bad.
Clay: Did that say roger, roger?
Clay: Is that from Princess Bride or something? Is that another reference I’m not-
John: No. That’s Star Wars.
Clay: Oh, okay. One of the droids. Okay. That’s more in my wheelhouse. Okay. Well, good. I’m glad that we got that cleared up because I’ll be straight up, things were not sounding good when you were like, “No, I’m not saving up for any rainy day fund.” Well, okay. Now that makes more sense because you’re also going to have your job. So at that point, is your plan … What you meant was a year … I don’t know. So what did you mean? That in a year from now you want to start to use real money? I guess, clarify that then. What is your goal in approximately a year from now? Because if it’s not quit your job and go full-time, what did you actually mean?
John: In a year from now I want to be comfortable enough to have the option to go full-time. Like I said, I’m not going to but I want to be comfortable enough to feel that way.
Clay: Okay. So then you have to start saving up money for your personal finances then also then right?
Clay: Because I don’t care if you feel comfortable, I’m telling you right now … And you probably know this too if you’ve listened to enough podcasts. But you may feel comfortable, but with all due respect, and I say this tongue in cheek because I did plenty of stupid things, you also felt it was a good idea to think that you could trade for something that you knew you needed to learn, but yet somehow this thing that you knew you needed to learn was going to somehow give you money so that you could go and pay to learn the thing that you wanted to do. Point being, feelings can be deceptive. So hopefully part of the feeling is that you’ll have that rainy day fund in place too because that’s got not a good situation written all over it. If you feel great but yet you don’t have that money set aside, that’s going to be a faulty deception. So just from someone that’s heard from a lot of people, make sure you’re working on the personal finance thing.
Clay: What is your plan to get to that point though? I mean, it sounds like you want to do … And you mentioned … I wish I could remember who you’re talking about. But you kind of liked their idea of putting some money in. But do you want to be paper trading or easing yourself into the market by a certain time or where does that kind of … Basically from now to a year from now, I get where you want to be at that point. You want to have the choice. Even though you know you won’t. But you want to be like, “Yeah, I could go full-time right now.” But fill in that gap.
John: I’m probably going to try paper trading here in the next month or so and then try to understand more of my feelings on the market and get some strategies. Try them out before I actually go full-time with the … Or, not full-time. I keep saying that. Try to go live with real money. I’m definitely not going to make the mistake that I made a year ago with real money. Which, again, it wasn’t as catastrophic as other people you’ve had on the podcast here. But for me, that money that I lost was enough to teach me that I’ve just got to know more.
Clay: And to speak for you, I think what you’re really getting at is you realize the massive potential pitfall of building bad habits, which can be built no matter the size of the account. Even if you’re using five bucks. I get it, it’s easy to say, “Well, I’ll only lose $5.” Okay. From strictly a financial perspective you’re not wrong, but from a habit building perspective, $5 will still build you bad habits. I mean, like I said, I don’t want to speak for you, but is that what you’re really getting at is you realize bad habits can be really, really annoying to break so you just want to avoid forming them in the first place at all costs?
Clay: Awesome. You’ve done some silly things but you also … You’re thinking a lot of this through wisely and I 100% back that up. There’s no need to rush out there and build a bunch of bad habits. From a paper trading perspective, do you have any idea … Because this is just a question I get all the time. Have you narrowed things down in terms of what kind of paper trading platform or simulator, whatever you want to call it, demo type account? Any ideas who you’d be using for that?
John: I haven’t yet. I’m either going to go with … I’ve heard good things about TD Ameritrade or Webull. I might trade one of those.
Clay: Okay. So there you go. That’s always a common question. So there’s a couple good answers. TOS being Think or Swim and Webull there. Good choices. Do you think that … And I’m not trying to pry into your personal finances but do you think that the amounts that you would need to make in order to at least hit those cost per month goals, do you feel like that’s a … I mean, how big of an account would you need to be able to accomplish something like that?
John: Honestly, I haven’t really thought about how big it’d have to be. My goal and only thoughts that I’ve had so far was just to, like you said, build the good mindset and the good trading … Yeah.
Clay: Yeah. You’ve been just focused on good habits, good habits, good habits.
John: Yeah. Exactly.
Clay: Okay. And I’m not trying to overwhelm you. I’m sorry if I am. But like I said, just trying to … Part of any good plan is just to plan. So I mean, if you want to get to where you want to be in a year, those are other things are some things you want to think through and consider and just … Because I’d hate for you to get there nine or 10 months from now and be like, “Oh crap. I could have been doing that for the past nine or 10 months, but I wasn’t.” And now you can start to think about it. So that’s always a good thing. Where are we at … Wow. We’re coming up on an hour already. Man, the time flew by.
Clay: I don’t want to end it too prematurely or anything. Did you have anything else that you wanted to throw out there that you think, whether you did stupid or maybe something you did smart that you think people could learn from or do you feel pretty good about the discussion and what we covered here?
John: I think just the way I’m coming about it. Not being too aggressive with it. I think it’s a good idea to go into it … Make sure you’re getting your knowledge before actually jumping into things.
Clay: Okay. I feel like you might have just … Did you just answer the time machine question? So if I gave you the time machine and you could go back to the start and give yourself one bit of advice, what would that advice be? Did you maybe just answer that question?
Clay: So get educated then?
Clay: It’s almost like you have listened to this before. You somehow answered the question before I’d even answered it because you knew it was coming next. So I fully believe that you have been listening to the podcast, although I’m still a little worried given you’re going backwards. Hopefully you can make it all the way back to one. You’ll have to keep me posted. Like, “Yeah Clay, you really got worse and worse and worse as time went on.”
Clay: All right. Well, let’s move onto the fun questions here so we can get to know you a little bit better. I guess I already kind of know the answer to this. What is your favorite movie? The Princess Bride. No, I’m kidding. So what is your favorite movie though?
John: Pretty much anything Star Wars.
Clay: Okay. Big Star Wars fan?
Clay: Now, don’t curse my name but I still haven’t seen the newest one because it seemed like it was a disappointment to a lot of people. So without ruining it for me, would you disagree with those people or did you like the most recent one that was released, I guess now a couple years ago?
John: Oh boy. If we went down this rabbit hole this podcast would be hours. But to shorten it, I don’t like the new trilogy.
Clay: Okay. All right. I appreciate that. And we’ll just leave it there and if anybody wants to send you hate mail, well then come on into the chatroom and we’ll set up a little chatroom and let a Star Wars debate break out. What about food? What is your favorite food?
John: I’d say probably either Chinese or spaghetti.
Clay: Chinese. I got to ask now, what’s your go to Chinese meal?
John: Probably lo mein.
Clay: Okay. Sesame chicken for me.
John: I don’t think I’ve ever had that.
Clay: What? What are you, a communist?
John: I might be.
Clay: Yeah. Well, everybody already thinks we’re both communists anyways, or at least thinks I am, given my lack of not knowing who Wesley is from the Princess Bride. So yeah. That ship has probably already sailed. And then what do you like to do for hobbies?
John: I’ve actually never heard anyone else say it, but I’m actually a toy smith.
Clay: Now, what exactly is … That just means you build toys?
John: Yeah. I collect action figures and stuff like that. I’m a huge nerd. I do kit bashing and custom sculpting and stuff like that. Painting.
Clay: You said kit bashing?
Clay: Can you explain what that is?
John: That’s where you take parts of action figures and pop into different figures to create other characters. So like say one character has boots on that I need to put on another one, I’ll just pop them off and either do the cutting and sanding that I have to do or just pop it on.
Clay: Okay. So these are not toys that are designed to do this. You’re doing quite a bit of customization it sounds like?
John: Where it needs it. Some of them are pretty easy to swap around, but some of them you do have to do a little bit of work to get them where you want them.
Clay: All right. Let me just take this two extreme examples so I can see if I understand. So I could give you a GI Joe and a Barbie and you’re telling me that you could take those two and create Ken the beast mode warrior. Is that what you’re saying you do? You just can take toys like that and then combine them together?
John: Yeah. Pretty much.
Clay: Oh, interesting. I didn’t know that that was a thing. Do you have any sort of cool characters you’ve created? I don’t even know how to talk about this conversation. Maybe I sound like a total moron right now.
John: Oh no, you’re fine. The most recent one actually I made was a grim reaper. I took three different figures’ parts and put them together. It was pretty fun.
Clay: Okay. So part of it could also be a pre-established character such as the grim reaper and you’re like, “Okay, well how can you use these parts for the end product to be the grim reaper?” So obviously you didn’t create the grim reaper as an idea but you just took different figures to make it?
John: Yep. Exactly.
Clay: Interesting. Do you sell these or is there a market for this sort of stuff or is this just strictly a hobby?
John: There is definitely a market for it. I just don’t feel like I’m comfortable enough with my work to sell it. I’ve commissioned quite a few people-
Clay: Whoa, whoa, whoa. That’s the great thing about the marketplace though is if it’s not good enough for you to sell it, well then nobody’s going to buy. But that doesn’t seem like a good reason to not at least try.
John: That’s true.
Clay: I mean, you should totally try. Like I said, that’s the beautiful thing about capitalism. If the market says no, you’re not very good, at least you know you’re not going to be very good because either people don’t like your product or it’s priced too high. But I would argue let the market dictate whether or not your skillset is there. Man, that’s super interesting. I want to talk more about this, but … We can argue about … I don’t know argue about Star Wars, but we could totally geek out on some of this stuff, it sounds like. But that’s actually super, super fascinating.
Clay: And just to bring us back into the actual point of the discussion here. Three words. And you know the question. These three words need to be what you would use and associate with either what it takes to be successful or what a successful trader is. What would those three words be?
John: I’d say patience, practice, and persistence.
Clay: Patience, practice, persistence. P cubed, man. You just P cubed it up. I like it. Very, very nice.
Clay: Well John, I appreciate you doing this. I appreciate you volunteering here and just sharing the hiccups, sharing kind of the things where now we all look back and be like, what were you thinking? But like I’ve said a million times, and I’m going to repeat myself, because we’ve all been there and you will be there too. And if you don’t think that you’re never going to do anything silly, spoiler alert, you are going to do something … Odds are multiple things that you’ll eventually look back and be like, “Wait. What was I thinking?” And you won’t even have an explanation for it. So I really do thank you for your candidness John and just sharing so much.
John: Thank you. Definitely. I loved to be on.
Clay: And will you come back at some point and update us on things?
John: Oh, absolutely.
Clay: Perfect. Well, thank you again John.
John: Thank you.
Clay: All right. Now, for you listeners out there, before we go, a final few things. First off, if you are listening at iTunes or any of the other podcast players, then be sure to leave us a rating. And better yet, especially on iTunes if you could leave us a written review, that helps out. It goes a long way. And those little things communicate to myself that hey Clay, I enjoy the podcast. So please keep making them because as anybody that’s trying to manage their time, you got to make sure that you’re using your time wisely. And a quick way to say, “Yes Clay, you’re using your time wisely. These are helpful. I enjoy them. They’re entertaining.” Then like I said, leave a rating and then a written review and those little things go a long, long what in ensuring that we continue to go out there and find guests and make this happen. And then also if you’re listening at claytrader.com on the show notes page, there’s a little box in the right hand corner. If you click on there, that’ll take you to frequently asked questions and then if you still want to reach out directly to us, you can do that. Always enjoy hearing from members of the community and just members out there that listen to the podcast. So I’m open to suggestions, criticisms, feedback. All that stuff is more than welcome.
Clay: So thank you again to John. Thank you to all of you as listeners. And we will see you back next week.
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