Lots of emotions are bad for trading results. But when I stop and think about it, that feeling of anxiety has got to be one of the worst out there to deal with. It can cause you to miss out on trades, to exit a trade to early, or maybe to eventually just “FOMO” into a trade at a terrible location because you’re so upset you watched several others “would have been a winner” trades pass you by because of the anxiety in the first place. Fellow member of our community, Marty (“2Madrids” in chatroom), struggled with anxiety and finally reached the point of being sick and tired of it. She decided to make some changes and redo how she was going about her trading journey. I give her credit for relatively quickly realizing that the emotion of anxiety can be crippling and for taking matters into her own hands. She has now reached a point where yes, she still has much to learn, but she has now essentially eliminated her anxiety. Lots to learn here so let’s get to it!
Clay: Hey, it’s Clay. Real quick before I get to the episode, I want to just bring to your attention, one of the most common questions I get and it’s a wise question, it’s something that makes sense to be asking, “Hey, Clay, what is a good broker for a beginner. I want to trade stocks. What would you recommend? Ideally, if it’s got zero commissions” and that would be Webull. They’re a fantastic platform.
Clay: What I like to apply is known as that platform hat method, H-A-T. First off, the H, does the platform give you the ability to hunt for stocks, to find good stocks. Webull absolutely does. The A, the analysis, does a platform give you the ability to analyze whatever stocks you have hunted and found, and with Webull, it absolutely does. Then the T, take action. You can hunt out stocks, you can run analysis on them, but if you can’t actually take action and put everything into motion, well, then a platform is not going to do you very much good but once, again, Webull is very, very beneficial for allowing you to take action with whatever sort of stocks and then strategies you’re looking to take advantage of.
Clay: Are they the be-all, end-all? They’re not. There’s lots of good platforms out there but when it comes to the quality of charts they give, when it comes to the zero dollar commissions, and the ease at which you can sign up, they have a great app for your phone, I would say at least give them a try. Go to ClayTrader.com/Webull and you can learn more, all about them, but let’s now get to the episode.
Clay: This is The Stock Trading Reality Podcast, episode 330.
Announcer: This is The Stock Trading Reality Podcast, where you get to see the realistic side of a trader’s journey. Get inspired and stay motivated by everyday, normal people who are currently on their journey to trading success. This is your host, he’s loving scammers getting scammed on YouTube videos, Clay Trader.
Clay: Let me setup a little context here. For those of you that are loyal listeners, a few fun facts, a few episodes ago, I talked about how if I would be going to jail, it would probably be because I would have roughed up, in a sense, some of these people that are running around and trying to scam people, whether it be in my YouTube comments section or Facebook or Instagram and if you’ve been around on any of those, maybe not with me but I’m sure you’ve seen, “Hey, contact me at” like some sort of bizarre number and the posts usually look pretty goofy because there’s asterisks and all sorts of symbols everywhere but they’re driving me insane.
Clay: As I said, I’m not a big fan of these scammers. I don’t even know how but I stumbled across some of these videos where basically they’re people that are hackers, they know their way around, so when these scammers call into them about … Usually, they prey upon the older people but basically they twist things around, they get into the scammer’s computer and then they start deleting stuff and then the scammers, ultimately, get all upset. It’s super fun to watch, it’s super fun to see the scammers get a little taste of their own medicine and, in many cases, just get completely frustrated and it’s all caught on video so it’s pretty entertaining.
Clay: However, I do need to remind myself that some of these videos are pretty long so I get done and it’s like, “Clay, shame on me, I think my time could have probably been utilized a little bit better than that”, but, hey, some entertainment every now and then I think is good for the soul. If you are looking just for some kind of mindless entertainment that is in a sense of justice I suppose, I’d say check out some of those videos where the scammers themselves get scammed and it’s a glorious, glorious thing to see because, yes, as I elaborated in that previous fun fact, I’m not a fan of these … I don’t know if it’s foreigners, I don’t know who it is, but it seems to usually be just people from …
Clay: Anyways, check it out. I’ll just leave it at that. As for our show today, great topic, as you saw from the title, Anxiety. One of the more savage emotions. I mean, all emotions are bad, they all have their downsides but, in my opinion, anxiety is one that is almost like a gateway drug. It’s a gateway emotion because you can sit there and miss a trade because of anxiety. Then you see the trade would have worked out, “Okay, okay”, oh, you missed another trade because of anxiety and you see that the trade would have worked out.
Clay: Then anxiety opens up the door to just flat-out frustration, flat-out … It opens up the floodgates of FOMO, fear of missing out, and then you go and you take the third trade, for example, and, of course, the third trade, which is based out of FOMO but the FOMO resulted from anxiety, because you missed those other trades and then all of a sudden, things get terrible.
Clay: Anxiety, it’s not a good one but our guest Marty, she recognized it very quickly in her journey that she was having to deal with it. She got very fed up with it, very quickly, and you know what? What do I need to do to get rid of it? As a miniature spoiler, but kind of the arc is she has now eliminated … Well, I mean, nothing is ever totally eliminated but she now can very, very, very much so better deal with anxiety now. What was she doing? How did she get her emotions under control? We get into that and a whole lot more but it was a great interview and she was an open book, held nothing back, and was more than willing to disclose everything. I’m very confident that there will be at least something in there for everybody so without further ado, let’s hear about Marty and her journey.
Clay: Marty, welcome to the show.
Marty: Thank you.
Clay: I appreciate your patience with me because I was the cause of the technical difficulties, or at least, the mic thing I think was … That was on me. I appreciate you being polite and not bringing the hammer down on me too hard. It was very kind of you.
Clay: You’ve mentioned … Well, I do recognize your name, though. Two Madrids. You are somewhat active in the chat room? How do I recognize that name? Have we emailed quite a bit? Why do I feel like I’ve seen that before?
Marty: Well, I get in the chat room when I can and then I was really pleased that I sent an email to you and you responded very quickly. It was on Tesla. I had a put option on Tesla and then news came out that they were added to the SPY.
Clay: [crosstalk 00:06:37]. Oh, yes. I remember that. Yes.
Marty: Yeah. I emailed you and I said, “Is there anything I could have done?” The answer was, unfortunately, you did what you could but this is one of the perils that can happen. I was very … I never do a trade that puts me at too much risk so it wasn’t like I lost the farm but it definitely … It was a little humbling, to say the least, at look how quickly something can go amok.
Clay: Okay. I don’t know if … All I know that Two Madrids, that alias looks familiar. It must be a combination of things. In reflection, I guess there is one thing you could have done and that would have been somehow gotten inside information so that you weren’t buying puts but you were buying calls on that day. At that point, we may have been doing this interview from you in the penitentiary.
Marty: That’s right.
Clay: Yeah. Probably just, like you said, one of the things that can happen. Well, cool. All right. That gives me a little context. For listeners’ sake, other than that, I’m flying pretty blind here. Some guests I play a little dumb because they’re super, super active in the room but I’m really looking forward to this and I just say all of that, for listeners, if this is one of your first episodes, the idea here is just to keep it real, unscripted.
Clay: I have no idea what’s coming next so you just get to be a fly on the wall of a couple traders, one trader just learning about another’s journey and along the way, I’m sure we’re going to get some good nuggets of information and wisdom through experience and what have you but let’s just get to the start of all this. Where did this all begin for you? Where did you hear about the markets? What sort of things played out that brought you to that place where you’re like, “Yeah, you know, I want to get a little more active with that”?
Marty: Yeah. I had watched some of the market shows, like Jim Cramer and kind of got started, interested there, Mad Money I guess is the show name, and then went to a class. I got a thing on Facebook that’s sponsored by Kevin O’Leary and you go and you learn about trading.
Marty: It was a class to recruit you to pay for the next class so my husband and I did and we went. It was really interesting. They really did make it sound very simple, “Well, if you think the stock is going to go up, you put a call option in. If you think it’s going to go down, you do a put option and here’s the chart and here’s how you know what to do” and this was I think four or five years ago.
Marty: I was all enthusiastic, I’m a, “Let’s get in here.” I did some paper trading and things seemed like it was doing pretty well. I don’t know if you recall Equifax when they had their security breach. I was thinking about what they said that, “Oh, well, if bad news comes out, the stock is going to go down” but back then, I didn’t know what I didn’t know, so I did do a put option. Again, I didn’t risk the whole farm but the stock went down but then it didn’t keep going down. It went back up.
Marty: Now I can say, “There’s over-bought and over-sold” and other issues I’ve learned about since then and through your classes but that’s where it got started, just from going to a class, I think they marketed on Facebook and I thought, “I want to learn this.”
Marty: I’m 55 so I am looking to learn this skill so as I move into older age, and I guess my goal would be to support myself and/or supplement income via the trading, which is what prompted me to take your course. That’s really condensed over four or five years.
Clay: That is a good … You don’t happen to be like an English teacher, are you? That was a very good summary paragraph.
Marty: I’m an educator. I create trainings.
Clay: You are an educator? I was going to say, that was a … I mean, I feel a little self-conscious now. I’m like, “Oh, great. Am I going to be like … My sentence structure, is it going to be …”
Clay: No. In all seriousness, that was a very impressive summary paragraph there.
Marty: It pretty much sums it up. I’ve had some really good trades and then I’ve had some trades that I say, “That wasn’t really a good … You didn’t do too good on that one.” What I would say is I love the having a plan, entry and exit point, and when I follow that, I stay in good shape but when I veer off-track, it always humbles again or it’s a lesson but I’m getting less at doing that. I can say when I first started, I would have some good trades and then get over-confident, “Oh, I got this. I know what I’m doing” and then something …
Marty: I think the class I took several years ago, there was so much that was left out that now I see the gaps filled in and go, “Oh, that’s why that was a problem. Oh, I didn’t look at this. Oh, I should have looked at the support resistance. Oh, I didn’t …” I’m definitely still learning. I don’t have it all for sure figured out but I’m trying.
Clay: It sounds like you would agree that enough little small holes will sink a boat because as you describe that, that’s all I can think of is, “Oh, that. Oh, I missed that.” It can be smaller things but you get enough smaller things and enough small, “Oh, I missed that”, that becomes a problem, doesn’t it?
Marty: Yes. It does. Yes. It does. The noise that’s out there I don’t know about other people but because they can track all of the places we look stuff up, I get so many emails and Facebook and I feel like you have to constantly block out all of this noise that comes in, it’s going to go through the roof, it’s going to tank. I mean, it’s easy I find to let that subconsciously get in there and affect your decision but that’s another thing I’m consciously working at, don’t pay attention to that. Just block it out.
Clay: That’s a really interesting point and you’re right. You run a search and it can be on Google, and then all of a sudden, you’re scrolling through your Facebook wall and there it’s there and then you’re over on Twitter and it’s all of a sudden there because you’re all selling information to one another, which, I mean, I suppose has its benefits if you’re in the market for a grill, for example. Then, yeah, okay, now you’re showing me stuff for a grill.
Clay: I mean, to your point, there is so much stuff out there about, “Oh, this strategy” or that stuck or this crypto or follow me and look how much I’ve made and I feel relatively blessed that I came into all of this way back in, let’s just call it, 2006 ish, when it’s not like the internet didn’t exist but, I mean, things have changed from there when I can only imagine what it’s like to be a brand new trader and then, like you were describing, because of all this social media and how they just get that bit of information and then just bombard you with it, it must just feel so, so overwhelming.
Clay: I want to try to … You took that class and it was mainly options. Was that the main premise of it?
Marty: They did credit spreads too and I did not venture into those at all. That was the other premise of it. Then the next step, which I think you’ll find entertaining or any people who are listening, you can buy into our training for $50,000 and [crosstalk 00:15:14].
Marty: Yeah. And we’ll show you how to become a professional trader. My discussion with my husband, and we were on the same page, went something along the lines of, “Well, it makes more sense for us to learn and then put that $50,000 that they’re saying, ‘We’ll loan it to you’ into the market and try to do something that way.”
Marty: That was where I started seeking out how can I get more educated about this? Because I really was starting from ground zero. My parents, both worked very hard, at times, worked two jobs and didn’t know, just didn’t have that exposure of investing in that kind of thing so then as kids, my family and I, we didn’t really get educated about it either. It’s something as I got older, I thought, “I want to learn more about this and hopefully work smarter, not harder.” You know?
Clay: No. Absolutely. That’s another thing, and I’m not going to try and go off on a rant, but I mean, I’m not a big fan of excuses but for your parents, for example, I mean, at that time, there wasn’t … You couldn’t just reach in your pocket, pull out a device, and then just start learning about stuff. I mean, that just didn’t exist. That makes sense. Yeah, they’re just busy working hard and just didn’t understand some of the things out there.
Clay: At this point in time, it’s just kind of like … I get it, there’s lots of information out there, but the information is out there so for someone like, “Well, I didn’t know” as they have their smartphone in their pocket, it’s like, “Were you looking at all?” I guess point being, shout out to your parents, that’s good stuff, working two jobs and all that, and it’s just such different times now in terms of access to information compared to what it used to be.
Clay: Maybe you mentioned this and I’m sorry if I missed it, did you have to pay to go to this class or is this all … I’m assuming it was advertised as a free class.
Marty: Well, the first class was free and then you paid $1000 to attend and then the next piece was we’ll set you up with our finance team and we can get you the $50,000 …
Clay: It was an upsell upsell but then it wastes very much time to get to that … Was anybody doing the $50,000?
Marty: There were people signing up. They kind of did it like a … What can I liken this to?
Clay: Like a time share presentation?
Marty: Exactly. Like a time share presentation. “If you sign today, we can do this special deal for you but only today.” We both kind of were like, forget it. Then we both felt this, “My gosh, we feel like we’ve been hooked” or they’re trying to hook us in and find fish to try.
Clay: Yeah. You heard some noise in the background but that was just the shears being sharpened up. That’s the thing with that sort of stuff is I respect you, I respect everybody else that was there. At least, you’re out there searching for knowledge, you’re trying to improve, you’re trying to grab life by the horns, if you will. That’s fantastic. I’m all for that, I’m all for that attitude.
Clay: I’m also all for some logic. For my classes, [inaudible 00:19:08] it’s like, okay, well, have you looked at the price of college? What I charge compared to college, it’s not even … There’s just no question about it.
Clay: But, I mean, $50,000, that goes out the window and you’re right … I mean, you can blow up one pattern of day trading on account of $25,000 and still have $25,000 to try it all over again at that amount. That’s crazy.
Marty: We left. But I am grateful for it because it was a catalyst to say, “Okay, I’m not going to do that but what can I do?”
Clay: Yeah. Good point. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.
Marty: That’s where things went. I think they were targeting 50 plus age group and a lot of the [crosstalk 00:19:54].
Clay: I don’t think any 18 year olds have $50,000 so I would say that I think you’re onto something with that comment. Yes.
Marty: Yeah. We noticed there were quite a few people in our age range there and retirees so they were … I live in Arizona so this is a retirement mecca. They definitely had their target niche and were … It was interesting to watch and learn from but to your point of the holes in the boat, yes, there were a ton of holes in the boat.
Marty: One of the examples was with options, they said, “As long as there’s at least $500K being traded, you’ll be fine.” Well, no. That is not true at all because then the big and the ask becomes very wide. You know? That was one of the hard way lessons too that I had a good trade, “Oh, great. It went up.” Then when I went to sell it, “Hey, the bid and the ask is wide now and now I lost my profit.”
Clay: It is. It really is those small little things. When you’re brand new and you don’t know what you don’t know, there’s no way you’d ever consider something … It makes no sense for you to be aware of that. You would just assume, “Okay, yeah. That’s how it works” and that’s normally how you learn about it is when it actually is happening to you and you’re like, “Oh, okay. Yeah. That would have been nice to know about” but when you’re in that spot, it’s just difficult to know.
Clay: Who was your … I guess what year was this? This was back …
Marty: Time goes really fast. I want to say it’s about five years ago. When I first started was whenever the Equifax security breach happened because that was my first education and support and resistance that I just thought, “Oh, it went down. I made money. I’m going to do that again. Oh, I made money. Oh, I’m going to do that … Hey, I lost my money.” There’s a breaking point where it’ll go down but then there’s buyers again to send it back up.
Marty: Back then, I didn’t have that in my little toolbox either so I just thought, “More bad news came out. I’m going to make more money. More bad news. Oh, good. I’m going to make more money” but I made money and then I lost money because it only goes down so far before it pops back up.
Clay: Exactly. Exactly. All I can say is I hope if you’re a brand new listener, there’s some good stuff here. There’s some stuff where if you just listen to what’s being said and experienced, there’s some takeaways here. Who was your first broker? Out of curiosity.
Marty: You know, I’ve had … Primarily, I’ve worked so I have Fidelity manages my retirement account but now I have E-Trade. I’ve used E-Trade for several years. I mean, I think … I want to say I got an Ameritrade at one time. I’ve stuck with E-Trade. I’ve traded with them for years now, for the last several years.
Clay: Okay. Any reason why you like them? I’m not saying that you’re wrong. For people that are maybe in the broker search or looking to change, what drew you to E-Trade? I have no experience with them.
Marty: I’ve had good success with the customer service piece, the trades. I think it’s more there’s some truth to a comfort, I know how their systems work, I know … That’s why. I’ve probably just defaulted once I was with them versus going with another platform. I don’t use them for research. I have Trading View. I think that’s one of the ones that you suggested in the getting started video or training. I use that when I have that open on my laptop when I’m working, on days when I’m not slammed, and then I’ll keep an eye on that. I use Trading View for my research and I use E-Trade for my trading, primarily, because I understand clearly how it works with them. I know their time frames, I know … Yeah. That’s why.
Clay: Okay. It sounds like your husband went to that class with you. Is your husband pretty involved in all this too?
Marty: Not at all really. My job is very busy and I don’t trade as much as some of the individuals on the thread, the Rocket [crosstalk 00:24:58].
Clay: Yeah. With the chat room.
Marty: The chat room. Yeah. Because I can’t with my job. I have to pick and choose what I do based on what I’m doing with my work schedule. He just does not have time to focus right now but we talk about it and it’s a lot of shared discussion but he’s interested. I think he just does not … He has a business so his energy is focused on his business right now and, at some point, I see him transitioning back into doing more with it and we both have that vision of some point utilizing what is learned towards our future retirement and to give us more options.
Clay: Yeah. Awesome. What kind of business does he have? If you’re allowed to disclose.
Marty: Yeah. Okay. He’s a chiropractor. He’s a great chiropractor. He’s very busy. That speaks well for him. His time, he’s just got a lot going on and then with documentation, it’s not just the time with the patients, then you’ve got to make sure all your documentation is done. He keeps pretty busy.
Clay: Yeah. Any business, if you’re busy, that would be a good thing for sure. Absolutely.
Marty: Yeah. Especially through all the transition we’ve had over the last year or so.
Clay: Yeah. I know. Absolutely. Yeah. It’s been a little bizarre. You take the class and everything … Maybe there’s nothing to fill in here but you take that class, you learn about it, like you said. Yeah, you didn’t do the $50,000 thing but, at least, it sparked your interest, it got you involved.
Clay: Between that point and then when you stumbled across the training and stuff that I offer, what was going on between then? Was that just a lot of trial and error and up and down? I’ll let you make any notes between that time period here in the journey.
Marty: Trial and error is right. I think I deal in possibility so I always thought, “This is possible” so I knew … In the beginning, you don’t know what you don’t know and then as you keep going, you realize what you don’t know.
Clay: Right. That’s true. Yes. Exactly.
Marty: “Wait, I don’t know what I’m doing. Hey, I did good but then I should have gotten out sooner. Oh, I got out too soon.” You know? I started looking actively for courses and I’ve never been a trusting soul of the too good to be true and a lot of the marketing that’s out there for these trading courses are, “You can make $50,000” or this over-exaggerated, “I’ve never had a bad trading day.” You know?
Marty: When I came across your course, I appreciated … I thought that it was realistic and here’s the reality. It isn’t as easy as you might think and you can make money but you can also lose a lot of money and I thought, “That is true.”
Marty: I attended one of the free classes that you listen to and actually I did it twice. I went to the first one and then I just pondered on it for I think six months or something and then I came back and listened to it again and I thought, “Yeah. This is the route I want to go.”
Marty: I signed up for your class and as I was listening, I would take road trips just to listen to the courses. You know? Some of them, I listened to twice. The Robotic Trading, I thought that was some of the best advice there is. You know, take the emotion out, what you think doesn’t matter, it’s what the market indicates. That was a tremendous lesson that I did not fully have.
Marty: Then the Volcano trading is kind of where I focused my energy. Because of time, I thought I need to break this down, and this probably comes from being the educator, “I need to break this into chunks. It’s too much if I try to do everything at one time so what can I pick to focus on?” That’s where I focused my … I went to all of the training audios and video and then I focused my attention on learning about the RSI, the Mac D, and I have … In Trading View, I’ve done, I don’t know what is the right term, scalping, I just get in, get out.
Marty: I do some of those types of trades. I’ll watch the over-bought, over-sold, and then get in and out. I don’t make a lot, a killing on that but I’m happy to do a couple hundred, and be learning in the process.
Clay: No. Getting paid to learn is much better than getting punched in the face and saying, “Oh, okay, I can learn from that.” Hopping back in, before you got my classes, did you have any sort of trainwreck trades? Was there something in particular that really smacked you upside the head that made you wave that white flag and say, “I officially don’t know what I’m doing” or was it just a combination of things? Sometimes a good horror story can go a long way. Do you have any of those or is it just literally a whole bunch of just up and down stuff?
Marty: Well, the Equifax was my first punch in the face. It was I had taken … I had been saving money and put it into my E-Trade account and, again, I put $2000 in and I lost $2000. I mean, very quickly.
Marty: Poof, it was gone. I felt discouraged, like, “I thought I could do this” and so my mental state went towards negative and then I rebooted and said, “Well, you’re new. You’ve got to try it again.”
Marty: Then I left it alone for a while and just used my work. I contributed through my work program. Then I learned along the way that I can trade within my 401K. I transferred … I had about I want to say $10,000 in there and I transferred it into my E-Trade account and have been working with that.
Marty: It’s gone … I haven’t lost the farm at any point but part of it is … The part I didn’t like the most is the anxiety feeling of when I would do a trade, I felt like I turned into anxious and then I was afraid to take my eyes off the E-Trade … I almost got hypnotized where I can’t stop watching this because I could lose my money.
Marty: That was more my catalyst. I did not like feeling so nervous every time I did a trade and then I would stop trading because I’m scared, I don’t know what I’m doing, you worked for your money, you’re going to lose it, all of that was more of a catalyst because if the trade went the wrong way, I would almost immediately get out of it. E-Trade probably loved me back then because, “Oh, goody. We made more commission off her.”
Marty: Yeah. “She’ll get out.” All it has to do is she loses $100 and she’ll get out. Then over time, I learned that, yes, it can go down but then it goes back up and by watching the over-bought, over-sold, and some of the support, resistance, those other things, I’m much more relaxed than … I can’t even compare. It’s a difference experience to just be, “Okay, yes, it’s probably going to go down, but watch, it’s going to go back up and then see if it breaks through here.”
Marty: Then I also have that chat open and I pay attention to what you post. Last week, there was a Tesla … I love the flashpoint or end of day special you post [crosstalk 00:34:14].
Clay: Oh, yeah. Sometimes the late day specials. Yeah.
Marty: Late day special. Yeah. I got in one of those and because I’m cautious, I don’t … I have limits on how much I’ll risk on a trade. I did an option and I quickly pulled about $500. Then I closed it out and then the next day … I didn’t keep it overnight because I was like, “Tesla, I don’t know what it’s going to do” and then the next day, it went in the right direction where I could have made more and then I had this … This would be a bad trade. That, “Oh, I should have stayed in there. I got out too soon. Look at what you missed out on” so then I did another trade and this was … Then I gave it all. I basically went back to zero and I hate that I know better but I still did it. I think I shared in … I can’t remember if it was you or with Nate that when things have gone badly, it’s because I didn’t follow what I know to be right. Then I have to lick my wounds and say, “You knew better than that. Why did you do that?”
Clay: Was that trade the day afte the one where you made $500?
Marty: Yes. Yes.
Clay: Isn’t that … See, I’m glad I’m not the only one that has that voice but the stupid voice that plays … Let me reverse it around. Had the price gone way against Marty, Marty would be sitting there like, “Oh, yes. See, it could have been so bad, I’m glad I got out” but that voice always conveniently leaves out the other part and it’s like, “Can you imagine?” Open up the calculator app, pull out the calculator, start doing some numbers, look how much you could have been up and it’s crazy how …
Clay: It’s almost like a bug being attracted to that zapper. It’s just hypnotized. To your point, you know you probably shouldn’t be doing that but somehow you just, ultimately, do it. It’s just because … You’re trying to compensate for something, you’re ultimately trying to go and get those gains that that voice has tricked you to thinking you’ve left on the table, even though, you played it right in the first place.
Clay: I’ve been there many times. It’s such a bizarre thing. I think that’s a good example of why … If people have never traded before, they would probably listen to us discussing it and be like, “What’s your problem? You’re just not all with it because if you have rules and you know what is right and what’s wrong then, well, what’s so hard about what’s following what’s right and so wrong?”
Clay: To those people, I say, I get it, I understand we probably do sound like we’re a bunch of lunatics but all I would say is just put a little of your money in the market and you made an interesting comment, which I think hopefully you don’t really look at it this much but you made the comment of, “Well, I worked hard for this money so I don’t want to lose it.” That’s so true and I think that’s what makes things difficult is you don’t want to lose money because you have worked for it. You’ve worked hard for it and when you know it could possibly go away, that creates a bunch of gray territory.
Clay: If you’ve never traded with real actual money, I understand where you’re coming from but all I’d say is before you cast full judgment, just do some trading on your own and I think you’re going to meet a bunch of voices in your head that are really good at playing mind tricks on you. They’re like the ultimate times share salesman. The voice in our head could easily get us to sign up for that $50,000 program. They are that good.
Marty: That’s right.
Clay: Yeah. I’ve lost track of the times where it’s like, “Clay, what are you doing? This is stupid.” It’s like, “Okay, that was …” Sometimes it can turn out well but other times, it’s not so good.
Clay: Before I forget, it sounds like you are pretty busy with your day job. I’m sure there’s lots of listeners here that also work a full-time job. If you can, walk us through how trading fits into your life as somebody that is working a full-time job and sounds to be quite busy with it.
Marty: Yeah. I’m on Pacific time so that really is to my advantage because the market opens at 9:30 Eastern time so 6:30 my time and I get in the trader’s lounge and see what’s being discussed. I almost got in that B2B yesterday [inaudible 00:39:12] and I couldn’t watch it. Then I looked at it later and it was up like 100 points or something and I was like, “Ah”, but anyway.
Marty: To what you just asked, if I know I’m going to be slammed, I don’t trade because I can’t watch it. You know? I see that things can shift. I feel like the market is pretty volatile, to me, right now, up, down, up, down, especially with options, although, it seems like it is decided to be bullish. I haven’t looked at it since we’ve been on but with that said, I have Trading View, I watch the SPY, that’s my main … I’ve asked you some questions about the SPY too. I trade that index. Then Tesla, I’ll watch your suggestions on Tesla. I pretty much focus on those two because that’s all I can do right now.
Marty: I just do primarily option. Most of the time, I’ll go four days out on my option. I put a limit on … Again, to everybody, everybody has their limit. I don’t typically ever go over a $2000 trade, because of where my skill level is, and then if it goes 30% the wrong direction, I hate it sometimes but I do get out and I say, “I’ll live to trade another day” because I do have a finite budget with what I trade.
Marty: That’s my system right now. I’ll look … The SPY was rolling there for a while. Nice kind of up, down. I did do some call and put options and added to my account but then it got stuck in this channel for a while and it doesn’t work. My system of the rolling hills, up and down, didn’t work very well when it gets stuck in a channel because it doesn’t move very much. That’s been what I’ve been doing for I would say the last couple months, several months.
Marty: I don’t do … I am a pattern day trader but I go through periods where I do and then I go through periods where I don’t, either because I can’t tell what the market is going to do or I have work, things that take precedence. That’s what I like. I have an option right now that’s out into July.
Marty: The four day, I just go out a little bit because of the cost piece and then decide at the end of the day, are you going to let it ride or leave it in? Are you going to close it out? Depending on where I am. The end of the day fluctuations are always interesting to me because sometimes there’s no rhyme … To me, there doesn’t seem like a rhyme or a reason but sometimes the market will drive prices up at the end of the day and other times, things sell off. I’m still trying to figure out how come. That would be a Clay Trader question.
Clay: I was actually going to say, if you figure that out, can you please let me know and teach me because … I don’t think there is an answer because … I agree with you. I just watch and you just like, “Okay, I guess …” I think it’s probably just [inaudible 00:43:09] and stuff, closing out … Almost end of the day type things where they’re closing out but that’s speculation from me. As far as why do the SPY just decide to randomly skyrocket up or just drop off a cliff, I really have no idea. If you figure that out, I would love to know that.
Clay: It sounds like, though, you’re doing a mixture of day trading and swing trading because the late day special trade that you talked about where you made the $500, that was just a day trade, right?
Marty: Correct. Yeah.
Clay: Okay but you also mentioned you have an option right now that’s out in July. What sort of balance is day trading versus swing trading or is that more of just being driven by how busy you are at your job?
Marty: You know, I do over the weekend too … I’ll go back through some of the threads, I’ll get on Trading View and look at some chart review. I look at the power scans. I wish I had more time because I would like to … The power scans, you send the email. I would like to look into those more but what distinguishes the SPY, that one I’ve watched, I know support resistance, I shouldn’t say know because, of course, things can shift but that one I got where I watched it all the time so I had more confidence with my entry and exit points and that’s why I focused. I only focus on a couple, Tesla and SPY right now, because I know the support and resistance, I follow your suggestions, I look at …
Marty: I just have to focus on … I have to keep it … That works for me right now. Where I trade is I have to be in a place where I can eyeball the Trading View, that’s for my own peace of mind. I know some people put in an option and say, “You just check it at the end of the day and see where you’re at.” That doesn’t work for me. Right now, I need to be in a position that I can keep an eye on it. If I know I’m going to have a crazy week ahead or I’ve got a lot of meetings and I can’t just … I don’t feel confident to just leave them alone.
Marty: The one I have out to July is a SPY option and so that one I don’t have to watch closely. That’s something I’m kind of trying to work through myself is does it make sense with my life situation to only do further out options where I can leave them alone? That might be a better choice.
Marty: I also like about options that there’s finite risk. There’s something about that that I know a stock can go all the way down but it can also move quite high but when I get into a trade, I like with the options that, “Okay, this is how much I’m risking, I know what my risk level is.” You can get into them less expensive than if you buy the stock itself. Am I answering your question? I’m kind of rambling a little bit here.
Clay: No, you’re fine. It sounds like pretty much that it’s not like you’re sitting there saying, “No, no, no. I want X amount to be day trades and I want Y amount to be swing trades.” It’s definitely … Well, flexible but as you also mentioned, you’re still trying to fine tune some things and figure out where certain little pieces might help you out for your personal situation, which is just a good example of why there is no one-size-fits-all strategy because everybody …
Clay: Yes. There’s universal principles, don’t get me wrong, but as far as … Just be very careful of anybody like, “Hey, let me teach you my strategy. Let me teach you how to trade like me.” It’s like, “Okay, well, unless you have the exact same mental makeup of that person and the exact same time schedule as that person”, that’s not …
Clay: It’s a good sales pitch but as far as what’s actually going to be practical, well, you got to fine tune things … Is that a fair summary of what’s going on right now? You’re still doing some fine tuning?
Marty: Absolutely. Yeah. When Nate reached out about doing the podcast, in my mind, I thought, “Well, I don’t have this all figured out.” He said, “Have you listened to some of the other ones?” I said, “Well, yeah.” I felt confident the expectation isn’t that I have it all figured out but I’m just being honest when I say I do recognize that I think I’m on the right track. I just need to decide …
Marty: I didn’t share this but I have stocks, I have equities that I just sit in too. I have some stocks I just leave alone. What’s nice is to be able to put in a when the market is kind of [inaudible 00:48:51] to say, “Okay, I’m going to hedge with a put option” just in case there’s a sell off of some type. That has served me well at times that my account stayed solid, even when there was a sell off. I’m still fine tuning. Yes, that’s accurate.
Clay: Yeah. I do like … It is nice to have multiple pieces out there and one of those pieces is, like you said, those stocks that you just walked us through but you made a comment, which I wanted to follow up on and encourage you on but you mentioned you feel as though you’re on the right track. I can say, for sure, you’re on the right track because earlier you made an interesting comment about what was really the driving factor for you to admit that I don’t know what I’m doing and I need to go about learning a different way was you didn’t like that feeling of anxiety, you just didn’t like those emotions that a trade would bring about.
Clay: Then you mentioned but now you feel … Correct me if I’m wrong but it sounded like you feel a whole lot better, you feel more comfortable in trades. Is that true?
Marty: Yes. I mean, it really … I think the knowledge is power thing. The more you know, not that … Again, I think you say this all the time. There’s no guarantee. I get that. There’s something … I sleep better, I’m not anxious. If I make a solid trade based on the indicators and everything that I know and it doesn’t go the direction, I know it wasn’t … Like with the Tesla example where the news came out and then, boom, it just exploded. That wasn’t a bad trade. It wasn’t that I made a bad decision. It was something out of my control.
Marty: That’s why I also appreciate the risk management, that don’t risk what you can’t afford to put yourself at high risk with your trades. I do not. I don’t trade on margin. I’m conservative because I want to control my risk, I don’t want to get into trouble with that. That also helps control anxiety if you’re not using the farm or whatever on one trade.
Marty: I do follow my limits on that. I mean, I definitely don’t go too far in with any trade because of that learning that it can shift by something out of your control you don’t even know is coming.
Clay: That’s very well said because that’s one of the things where … I understand from a listener’s sake, this totally sounds like, “Well, Clay, of course, you’re going to say that because you sell classes.” Setting that aside, there really is … When you start to know that you do know stuff because you have nice structure, you know that there’s not pieces being left out, then there is peace of mind that comes with that.
Clay: Not in the sense, like Marty said, not like guaranteed because I’m going to start making money but you can start to just sleep better at night, you can start to have some confidence, you can start to actually behave in rational manners because you do actually know that you have some knowledge. Maybe not all the knowledge in the sense of you’ve got everything figured out because you’re a million dollar trader but, at least, you know that you have protocols in place that’s going to, “All right … Things could go bad but I actually know what bad means now” and I’m okay with that definition of bad. If you’re okay with that definition of bad, that means you’re within your risk tolerance, which is the name of the game.
Clay: That’s my long way of saying if you’re sitting there as a trader and you’re feeling anxious, you’re feeling stressed out, you’re feeling any of the above of negative emotion, as soon as you enter into a trade, your heart starts beating and you start sweating, there is … My course isn’t going to fix all that. I’m not saying that. That is a sign of a lack of knowledge too. Deep down, you know that there’s a lack of knowledge. That’s why you have those feelings. It’s your subconscious trying to say you really don’t know what you’re doing right now, you might kind of know but you know deep down, you don’t know.
Clay: I mean, Marty, that’s a great example. You’re just feeling more at peace because you have more of a game plan. I mean, are you … I’m assuming … Well, maybe this is the wrong assumption but I’m guessing that you want to do more of this in the retirement and for the foreseeable future. I guess what I’m really asking is what are some of your maybe broader term goals look like?
Marty: Well, I would like to focus my energies on … I’m in the health field as well, like my husband, so I definitely have a passion in that area towards preventative health and then also for trading. That’s where I would like to get to a point where I could do this daily and give it full attention and also work in preventive health. That’s where my end goal is. Numbers-wise, my short-term goal is to make, at least, $300 a week and then build from there. My trades, that’s my short-term to consistently, which to some traders that might be like, “Oh, well, that’s not hard” but, for me, I have not gotten to where I consistently am able to do that.
Marty: Part of it is my doing because when I do go in … I mean, I was solid, solid, solid and more than that, I was doing pretty well and then had a couple … One of them was the fear of missing out, “Oh, I missed out. I want a do over” and then you lose what you gained or not all of it but you lost some of the gains.
Marty: Right now, that’s where I’m sitting, where I consistently follow my plan, my rules, I don’t let the noise throw me off track, I don’t be my own worst enemy, so to speak, where the little … Not literally little voice but you know what I’m saying? That come in and say, “Oh, go ahead. It’ll be okay.” You know?
Clay: I think you literally mean that because that voice is like, “Clay, do that” and the other one is, “Hey, don’t do that.” I feel like … Well, this doesn’t mean anything to you because this episode hasn’t even aired yet so it’s not possible for you to have even listened to it but for those of you that are listening, the previous guest Evan, Evan was telling me that he likes to … He dresses up his voices. For example, he was telling me how greed has a nice suit, hair slicked back, and he’s … That’s how he deals with that. I think they’re almost literal.
Clay: You got to be able to identify those emotions and if that means you got to dress them up as different little characters, however you envision them, do what works in that regard because you’re absolutely right. You can have a streak of things but if you just listen to those voices just once, it will gladly punish you for your decision to follow them.
Marty: My latest voice told me that, “Hey, the volume is down. That means it’s going to reverse and it’s going to go down because the volume is down. You can trust that.”
Clay: To be fair, I mean, volume is an indicator but is it the only indicator or is that enough rationale … I realize you know this but there’s a little bit more that goes into it than just saying, “Oh, volume is down.” Okay, well, yeah. There’s some clouds outside too. That doesn’t mean it’s going to rain.
Clay: Yeah. It’s crazy, though, because you’re absolutely right. Little things like that, wait a minute, voice … That’s like the incomplete voice … To steal from Evan, that’s the voice that’s walking around missing one sock, maybe they’re missing a sleeve. They’re totally incomplete. It’s like that’s true, you’re dressed but you’re not actually dressed because you’re leaving out a bunch of things. I don’t know.
Clay: We’re officially talking about dressing up voices again so, Evan, thank you for that. Maybe I’ll have to turn that into one of the fun questions at the end is tell us about the wardrobe of at least one of the voices in your head. We’ll leave that to be seen.
Clay: Looking at the time, we’re coming up on an hour and we still go to go through the fun questions and stuff but I don’t want to … Did you have any other points you wanted to make or any other experiences that you thought might … As the educator that you are, I don’t want to pull the rug out from you too soon so, I mean, was there anything else that you wanted to comment on or share?
Marty: You know, I’m happy where I am. I feel I’ve learned a lot. To me, that’s a success. I’m learning, I’m applying what I’m learning, I’m not perfect for sure, I’m still trying to fine tune but I think you got to put your foot in at some point. I understand the paper trading, there’s a lot of emphasis on that and when someone’s ready, that would be my suggestion, just you’ll learn as you go. I don’t know. I don’t think I have any words of wisdom. I just am glad I chose to start and keep growing and learning and I am glad I took your course because it did fill in a lot of gaps of things I didn’t know what I didn’t know at the time.
Clay: You did drop some very, very good wisdom. I’m not trying to push, you don’t have to answer this at all, so you’re in education. Do you have a degree? What is your criteria as an educator is what I’m getting at.
Marty: I’m also a nurse. I’m a registered nurse and then I manage a team of staff and then I also create education for my organization and for my team.
Clay: Okay. Not to cut you off but that’s perfect. Think about what she just laid out and what did she say about how she chooses how to learn, which is so, so true and why I’m bringing it up as we come to a close here, take it in chunks, take it in sections. Way too many people show up and they just … This is not necessarily for my class but any class. They just power drive through all sorts of stuff. I mean, boom, boom. While I appreciate the ambition, that’s fantastic. Think about what you just said, somebody that maps out education, maps out, leads a team and helps people learn and how is she going about learning? In chunks, focusing on one thing at a time, getting that one thing under control before going out for everything.
Clay: Again, I admire people’s ambition to want to go out there, I’m going to learn it all and they’re just flying through the education, they’re flying through the learning. Marty, you would disagree with that learning approach, right?
Marty: I would because it’s easy to get overwhelmed and then you aren’t going to learn … You’re just going to be … I don’t think it’s going to work. I am a big fan of where am I trying to get? What’s my end goal? How am I going to get there?
Marty: For me, with anything, I always break things down in pieces. I mean, that’s what works for me. I think for most adults, that’s the way they’re going to learn.
Clay: The people that are underneath you, are they learning?
Marty: They do and they actually … I get a lot of positive feedback from my team, which I appreciate, that they like how I do micro-learning where you get a short video, “This is how you do this, this is how you do this” and I break it down in small pieces. I think that works. It works for me. It works for … Most adults, if you have to have something I think to apply it to, so take something you know about and then … I like in your classes, you use a lot of normal life examples and I think that that helps people learn too, apply it to something they already know about.
Clay: There we go. I mean, not that I’m at the education level that Marty is at. I mean, I don’t go around and poke people in the arm with sharp objects but [crosstalk 01:02:12].
Marty: I don’t do that anymore either. I used to but I don’t do that anymore.
Clay: Hopefully, I remember but towards the end I just got to ask you about … Now I know I’m talking to a nurse, I just have to ask but that’s some great stuff. Again, whether you’re taking my class or anything, just consider taking it in chunks, slowing down, just one thing at a time.
Clay: Well, Marty, as we come to an end here, if I were to lend you the time machine and you could take that time machine back to the start of everything and give yourself one bit of advice, what would that bit of advice be?
Marty: It would be start younger. I mean, have confidence in yourself and start learning about the market and investing in your twenties rather than your forties or fifties. That’s what I would do different. I wish I would have had the confidence to enter into it when I was younger.
Clay: I love that answer. I would assume that you would also agree, even if you’re not young, still just get started. Would you agree with that too?
Marty: Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I don’t feel … Like I said, I’m 55 but I don’t feel old.
Clay: 55 is the new 25, as far as how I’m concerned.
Marty: I mean, definitely I can think of if … It really was more of a confidence thing. When I was in my twenties, I was still believing that the only way to get where you want to go in life is just work, work, work, and I worked two jobs at different times. I followed the same pattern and then it wasn’t until later in different life circumstances that I shifted my views.
Marty: That would be my suggestion, no matter what your upbringing or your examples, not judging my parents at all but just saying whatever those were, make those decisions to educate yourself when you’re younger and who knows where that will take you.
Clay: Good stuff. That is a fantastic answer. Well, we’re going to move into the fun questions here. Marty, what is your favorite movie?
Marty: Let me think about that for a second. My favorite movie? I’ve got to think about one I’ve watched … Okay, this is an older movie. I used to watch it all the time with my kids, Overboard.
Marty: The original one with Kurt Russell and Goldie Hawn. See, now I’m dating myself. It’s kind of a goofy movie but …
Clay: How kid-friendly? My oldest is nine. Is this suitable for nine? Seven year olds?
Marty: Yeah. Yes. It’s silly, funny. It has a little innuendo in it but nothing like some of the Pixar … Like Shrek, I remember watching that and being like, “Hey, that’s got a lot of [crosstalk 01:05:21].”
Marty: A lot of innuendo in there. You know?
Clay: My wife has put the kibosh … There will be no Shrek. Yeah. Okay. Well, Overboard. I’ll keep that in mind for my kids and if my wife is like, “Where did you get this?” I’ll say, “Talk to Marty. She’s the one that gave me the recommendations.” I have somebody that I can throw under the bus so perfectly.
Clay: What about food? What do you like to eat?
Marty: You know, again, I’m in preventive health so I like to eat healthy stuff. I eat pretty well. Smoothies, I’m kind of bored with that but I just try to eat healthy most of the time. I will say I do like to splurge here and there. I would say primarily … Gosh, I feel like my food is boring.
Clay: I’ll rearrange. What’s a splurge item for you?
Marty: Okay. My daughter brought us a Cheesecake Factory cheesecake and I felt like my husband and I were piranhas.
Clay: So good.
Marty: It was so good. Yeah. We were enjoying the cheesecake, suffice to say.
Clay: It’s so good until you look at the calories that are in even one slice of those things.
Clay: I don’t know how that’s even scientifically possible to put that many calories in a piece of Cheesecake Factory cheesecake but their chemists are good I guess because apparently it is possible. Then last question, three words and what would these three words be that you would associate to what it takes to be a successful trader?
Marty: Follow your plan, that would be my three words, follow your plan.
Clay: I like it. Short and sweet but very, very powerful. Then just a random question because I’m talking to a nurse so I want to just ask somebody, I’m one of these guys where I’m scared of needles so whenever I got to get a shot, I’m sitting there sweating, moving around all antsy, what was your thought on … Did you experience guys like that when you were a nurse? Back when you said you were giving shots.
Marty: All the time.
Clay: [crosstalk 01:07:34]. You can be honest. What goes through your mind as a nurse? Like toughen up? Do you feel bad for the person? I always wondered, what is this nurse thinking of me right now? I’m trying to be cool but I’m not, I’m losing it, I am terrified of needles, even though, I know it doesn’t hurt. What was your thoughts? Maybe you can’t even say this. I don’t want you to lose your job. Just in general, what’s it like from the nurse’s perspective? I guess is what I’m asking out of curiosity.
Marty: You know, everybody is different. Of course, nurses, there’s no sacred conversations. If you’re ever at a dinner with a bunch of nurses, they’ll talk about things that you’re like, “Gross. We don’t talk about that” but there is no … There’s boundary issues I guess with, “Oh, yeah. Let’s talk about that.”
Marty: When it comes to what you’re describing, some nurses would say, “Gosh, what a baby” but I can tell you I think I got into nursing because I have empathy. I have empathy for people because I think everybody has their thing. Like I hate dental things, I hate going to the dentist, anything with teeth. My kids used to look at me and wiggle their tooth, it’s loose, and I would get sick to my stomach. But some people would be like, “Toughen up. It’s just a loose tooth.”
Marty: I mean, my thought is everybody has their thing. For me, I would try to joke with people and try to get them to relax a little bit. I always had them sit down because I had over the years people they went pale, I thought, “They’re going to pass out. I better have them sitting down.”
Marty: It is interesting, to me, that everybody has their thing. You know? Some people, it’s spiders. I don’t know.
Clay: That’s true.
Marty: I just think that you just got to meet people where they are and, in my career, that’s what I did. I tried to just say, “Okay, this is where you’re at. How do we solve the problem? How do we get through this for you?” My daughter actually is a bit of a needle-phobe. When she had to get her TB test, she [inaudible 01:09:47] they prick you in the arm to see if you have TB but anyway, I just think everybody has their thing.
Clay: That’s true. Everybody does have their thing. Yeah. I’ve just figured I’m going to ask just because I’ve always wondered. I’ve never asked the nurse in that moment, probably because I’m freaking out but now that I’m not freaking out … That is true. Everybody does have their thing.
Clay: Well, Marty, I had a very, very good time with this conversation. We’re over an hour now. I don’t know where the time went but thank you for sharing so much, thank you for being here, and we’ll definitely have to have you back since we sent you a mic and I don’t know if you read the fine print or not but in the fine print it said you now have to be a guest whenever we need you.
Marty: [crosstalk 01:10:35].
Clay: Joke’s on you as far as accepting that mic. No. Hopefully, you’ll come back. I would love to hear things continue to play out for you. Yeah. I appreciate it, again, and thank you very much.
Marty: Thank you. It’s been fun.
Clay: Good. Good. Now for those of you listeners out there, before we go, a couple final things or first off, if you’re listening on iTunes or any of the other podcast players, be sure to subscribe so you see when new content comes out and then also if you’re listening at Clay Trader.com on the show notes page, there’s a little button in the right-hand corner that you can click on that goes to a bunch of frequently asked questions or you can just reach out to us directly, if you want. We always love to hear from listeners of the show. Please feel free to reach out. Thank you to all of you as listeners. Thank you to Marty. We will see you all back next week.
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